Not so long ago an Aussie runner called Dave Criniti decided to do an Ironman. He qualified for Kona off the back of a 2.49 run and then just missed fastest run at Kona with 2.46 -1 second slower than Peter Reid. The thing I find surprising is that Dave is no superstar runner. He was at the time running about 32 for 10k and 2.32 for the marathon. I think recently he has popped a 2.29. Yet as an inexperienced Ironman he could run as fast or faster than all the gun pros. Surely the best of the Ironmen are much faster than 2.30ish. Macca was a 29 something 10k runner off tri training. That should equate to about 2.18-22. I would have thought that most of the top guys are 2.20-25 runners even off Ironman training. Is this not the case?
Most top 10 Kona finishers could run a well under 2:30 standalone mary, if they felt like it. Normann did. But who cares? It’s not a required part of their skillset.
Edit: Thanks for the correction, Brian.
These guys are pushing so hard on the bike, 2:40 - 2:45 is all they have left. If they slowed down a bunch on the bike sure they could maybe run sub 2:30 but what good would it do them in Ironman if they had to give up 30 mins on the bike to do it. Your friend Dave was smart and used his strength to acheive his best race.
MC
2:45 for an IM marry is no superstar runner?
Am I missing something here?
**140pt6: I think what mopak is referring to is not that 2:45 isn’t superstar, but his open run times aren’t overly fast (reflective of a 2:45 off the bike…i.e. 31:4x 10K & believe what was a 2:30+ marathon PB prior to that 2:46 in Kona '04).
**Rahzel: **As I recall, it was the 2nd fastest run behind Reid w/ the (2) others being in the physically challenged division.
2:29/2:46 is not bad. what was his swim and bike split?
My understanding is the top IM pros are likely sub 2:30 runners, but not sub 2:20 runners (with a possible exception or 2). Someone said a while ago that Dave Scott attempted to qualify for the Olympics once and ran like a 2:25. Again, these are fantastic times…but not in the same league as Olympians (2:04-2:14).
FWIW, I occasionaly run with Greg Watson who was a world class duathlete (nat champ twice, world once). His stand alone 5K PR was 14:52, though he was a stronger cyclist (hence I never rode with him ; ^ ).
Not so long ago an Aussie runner called Dave Criniti decided to do an Ironman. He qualified for Kona off the back of a 2.49 run and then just missed fastest run at Kona with 2.46 -1 second slower than Peter Reid. The thing I find surprising is that Dave is no superstar runner. He was at the time running about 32 for 10k and 2.32 for the marathon. I think recently he has popped a 2.29. Yet as an inexperienced Ironman he could run as fast or faster than all the gun pros. Surely the best of the Ironmen are much faster than 2.30ish. Macca was a 29 something 10k runner off tri training. That should equate to about 2.18-22. I would have thought that most of the top guys are 2.20-25 runners even off Ironman training. Is this not the case?
In short, they are fast. I am not sure if you are trying to stir the pot or not, and with all due respect to your friend, as he is a great runner, I wouldn’t exactly say his performance was in the same league as the top pros. The top pros are ripping off those fast runs after posting much faster swims and MUCH faster bikes. It’s comparing apples and oranges.
His splits were: 01:14:57 05:52:15 02:46:11
compared to Stadler who won that year
00:54:27 04:37:58 02:57:53
That’s a difference of 1 hour and 15 minutes on the bike alone and 20 minutes on the swim
I think there are really a couple questions hidden in this. Are you asking how fast they would go if they ran a standalone marathon at peak off triathlon training (i.e., Macca ran NYC instead of going to Kona). Or how fast they could be if they trained like marathon runners for X amount of time. Or how fast they could have been if they had trained like marathoners for Y years.
It’s not really a fair question. No Ironman pro runs even close to the amount of mileage a pro marathoner does.
Ironman athletes are not marathon runners. They are Ironman athletes. Training to run a marathon after 3.8k/180k is quite different than training to run a marathon.
And since most successful Ironman triathletes have been doing triathlon specific training for a while, it’s not like they would likely ever be able to realize what potential they might have had as a marathoner.
But beyond that, it’s sort of a silly argument. I would hope that people who at the top of a given single sport are a whole lot faster than a triathlete. What would it say if Normann Stadler could place in the top-10 of World TT champs or if Macca could place at a major marathon. Triathlon is ONE sport, not three. These guys are great triathletes, and that is the sport they are good at. It’s not surprising that they are not also elite athletes at some other sport…
Really, though, you’ll probably never know since running 2:20-2:25 gets you a whole lot of nothing (except for pain), so why would a pro triathlete put himself through that?
I recall reading several years ago about Mark Allen’s attempt to make the US Olympic marathon team. If I remember correctly, he was’nt able to even qualify for the trials. Isn’t the cut off for team B something like 2:28?
“Triathlon is ONE sport, not three.”
I like that assessment, Jordan. I think that gets lost in the sauce of the discussions of the sport. I think because it is ONE sport cobbled from three, people want to break the approach to it into three distinct modes for training and comparison. How many times do we hear after a race, “If only he could have had a faster run (or bike or swim), he could have run”. The race is the whole, not the sum of the parts…from a physiological performance perspective.
Triathlon is ONE sport, not three
As profound as anything ever said on ST and should be repeated more often. Kudos.
He went out to run sub 2:20. He gave that a go, and blew-up. It wasn’t like he couldn’t have run <2:28. But he tried for 2:18, IIRC. But, the important thing was that he ran fast enough off the bike on six very important occasions…
I think Christian Bustos has the fastest standalone marathon of any Ironman athlete. I believe he ran 2:16:XX.
They change the A / B standards every trials. I’m not sure what it was when Allen tried. As an aside I think one thing that make elite LD triathletes elite is that they can come awfully close to there open marathon time at the end of a tri. 2:40 isn’t an impressive open marathon time, even for masters runners on the world stage, but at the end of a tri its damn impressive, particularly for someone that might beable to only run 10 minutes faster as a marathon PR
Styrrell
His splits were: 01:14:57 05:52:15 02:46:11
Many could do that.
To take a different tack on the question. I’ll also posit that we would find it nearly impossible to coach a sub 2:15 runner to a 4:30 bike split…even if they didn’t have to worry about running afterward. But even if they could be brought to that level, their open marathon capability would back into the 2:20s for sure, and 2:4x:xx would be best case scenario for an IM run. The things that make for a good sub-2:15 runner don’t translate to the things that make a 50:00/4:30/2:40 IMer
His splits were: 01:14:57 05:52:15 02:46:11
Many could do that.
I agree. And so to suggest that the top pros are not running fast is ridiculous.
I think Christian Bustos has the fastest standalone marathon of any Ironman athlete. I believe he ran 2:16:XX.
AFAIK 2:19 at Frankfurt 1986.
I recall reading several years ago about Mark Allen’s attempt to make the US Olympic marathon team. If I remember correctly, he was’nt able to even qualify for the trials. Isn’t the cut off for team B something like 2:28?
He went for a sub 2:20 in Berlin 1994 and dropped out after 27k.
Take a look at the fastest run split at Kona last year. You’d assume it may be winner Chris mcCormack. It wasn’t. It was S.T. regular Sergio, who went under 2:40:00 to post the fastest run split of the race. I beieve that equated to a rather sprightly 6:14 pace, something few of us can even muster at an Olympic Distance tri.