I missed that gem 
jaretj
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that seems reasonable - I also think it matters on how long a bike commuteā¦
picking up a fixed gear (with brakes) to use this summer and will see how it affects my legs. I like the idea of run then bike - have not tried thatā¦not without it being at 2 ends of the dayā¦
Putting you down was not my intention, sorry if it came across that way.
I would move the quality workouts to a time when they could be done first. Actually this is a great rule of thumb for anyone, do the quality session, or session with the highest recoery cost first, then fill in the rest of the workouts if your schedule permits.
Every coach is different, typically my athletes do their first brick of the year in their first race with no ill effects. I may have my athletes do some transition runs one or two times prior to that first race. After a longer ride come home change shoes and go for a 10-15min run if they want to get use to the sensation of running after riding.
By that, I mean, if you do 6 tris in a season, the first 5 will be solid workouts preparing you for the 5th. When we train, we always try to break it down so that we do exactly what the body needs to get faster for the goal race. Race experience is great, as are time trials and race simluations. However, more often than not, they are only for psychological benefits.
Maybe Iām reading this wrong - are you saying that races and race efforts only have a psychological benefit?
So, a 4 mile run that would normaly be done at 9 min/mile pace is now being done at 9:20/mil epaceā¦which is a lower training load, which means you are getting less work done.
if the 9:20/mile pace (off the bike) is the same physiological intensity as 9:00/mile pace (rested), the training load is greater (80 seconds more) off the bike.
Or as Frank Shorter said say back in 1991 or soā¦do your most weight bearing workouts first and least weight bearing last.
For me that means whenever possible I do run before bike or swim and bike before swim.
So for a person training for triathlon that means inverting the order of the sports as done on race day. The guys hammereing masters swimming at 5 am 3-4 days a week are killing the quality of their run and bike workoutsā¦better to always swim last in training as much as possible.
Dev
that was the second half of winter training (partly because my first tri was in march) after a coached bike class many of us would throw on trainers and do a 15-20 minute run. made a big difference for meā¦
I wish track workouts (coached) were not after work - I do think I would get more out of them - but I have everything to learn about running - which also means much room for improvementā¦
apology accepted 
given that swimming is the *most *technique driven thing we do, I would think that would be the most important one to do NOT tired. I have definitely found the times that I am exhausted that I donāt get so much out of swims and in fact they are likely detrimental as I reinforce poor technique. Over the next few years that will hopefully change, and even now, after 8 months of training my technique holds better when I am tired, but seems counterintuitive to put it last on workout days that I want a real swim workout.
at this point I probably will put the run first more often as it needs the most work (I just like biking
Maybe Iām reading this wrong - are you saying that races and race efforts only have a psychological benefit?
I only meant when comparing them to a good workout, most of the additional benefit is psychological. If training for a 5K race, for example, I could simply race a 5K in every workout, but Iām usualy better off running an interval workout. My only point was that, yes, simulating races are nice, but they donāt really need to be done that often. Thereās a reason why we donāt do a triathlon a day when training for a triathlon.
if the 9:20/mile pace (off the bike) is the same physiological intensity as 9:00/mile pace (rested), the training load is greater (80 seconds more) off the bike.
80 seconds less at 20s a mile faster, i believe, is a higher work load to the running muscles.
Or we could say that the tradeoff is simply running 4 off the bike or running 6 fresh. The point being that external fatigue factors, (riding a bike, handheld weights, plastic suits, sleep deprivation, full stomache, etc.) inhibit our ability to train the muscles and energy systems we want to train.
aaaa
But donāt you want to work on your tired techinique? ; ^ )
But donāt you want to work on your tired techinique? ; ^ )
only if I ever do a reverse tri - NOT
I think my running still needs so much work that I cannot even appreciate when my technique is poor!
I read an interesting article a few years back that was talking about the importance of the recovery workout when you are still tired and sore from the previous ones. The reasoning they gave was that when some muscle tissue is damaged when you go out for another workout without recovering, your body must recruit different motor units to fire than it normally would. Since this is a cardio sport, we rarely recruit a large portion of muscle fibers, so it would make sense that forcing the body to use different muscle fibers for the activity could be beneficial up to a point. Obviously there is a greater risk of getting injured (just as there is a great risk of getting injured when doing more intensity). The concepts seemed logical to me.
-Brandon
On the one hand I agree that swim is technique driven and you donāt want to do it with poor technique which can happen when you are tiredā¦but running is also very technique driven and 99% of triathletes donāt pay any attention to running technique (but if you grew up as a track athlete you likely do). Doing running with bad form will lead to injury (if you do enough bad technique running, and looking around races that would constitute the large majorityā¦myself included at times). Doing swimming with bad form will make you slower but is not likely to lead to injury. However, it does not take a lot of energy to swim with good technique (or reasonable) when somewhat tired. Running on the other hand is hard to do with good form when you donāt have āelasticityā in your legs. The moment you lose that spring and are thumping, then that run is not helping anything. Better to go for a ride or swim that you can still do with good form.
Bottom line, is that being a triathlete is a compromise at bestā¦although we can try to swim like swimmers, bike like bikers, run like runners, the reality is that it is almost impossible to juggle all three, life and recovery into a single week and optimize all sportsā¦even pros cannot. This is why at some point in the year, you need to focus on one sport and de emphasize the othersā¦but when you get close to racing and need to combine all three, then stick to āinversion sequenceāā¦this is the best compromise day in and day out from a consistency, technique, quality and recovery perspective.
Dev
Even in maximal efforts like a 1RM lift, we do not recruit all the available muscle fibers, EMG studies have shown us that. Itās not the neural recuritment that makes the difference in how you do come race day, it is if you did the training or not.
ātired techiniqueā
Otherwise known as WALKING!
;~)
Fiber types? What of the training effect on muscle recruitment? The theory as I understand it, in a fatigued state further training occurs as diffferent patters of muscle recruitment organize to keep the muscle/training going. Some believe this is the chief benefit to recovery and 2 or 3 a day training sessions. Our nervous system then a can utilize these recruitment patterns when called upon in harder/ longer or race situations.
So for a person training for triathlon that means inverting the order of the sports as done on race day. The guys hammereing masters swimming at 5 am 3-4 days a week are killing the quality of their run and bike workoutsā¦better to always swim last in training as much as possible.
I think the word āalwaysā is not good here. If you want a quality swim workout, sometimes hard to do if your legs are tired and cramping from running, or being on your bike.
that is reasonable - I am changing a bit of my workout schedule as the season gets into swing - only one pool and 2 OWS per week - so I think the pool workout will clearly be the technique focused oneā¦at least I have some sense when swimming when I am totally offā¦
I have heard/read so many different things about running technique - that people get hurt when you change their ānaturalā dynamicsā¦though when I finally got what the run coach was trying to tell me for 6 weeks running became a whole heck of a lot easier (and faster). it had more to do with upper body than legs though. And yes I agree that most triathletes (unless they were runners first) ignore run technique.
Being new at all three disciplines has meant lots of learning - I suspect that will be such for years to come.
will have to try the reverse bricks in upcoming weekends thoughā¦
Donāt you think that the last 30min or a 2h run with race pace in it also teaches you to ārun with tired legsā? Or say the last 2 mile repeats when doing 7-8 x 1mi at AT? Or the last 5 400m in a 20x400 workout?
By the way, define ātired legsāā¦you stand your entire day at the mall, go home and go for a run, your legs are tired and heavy. Does that count?
Should we do mall to run bricks?
Just curious because I am bike commuting to work and I noticed my legs are really heavy in the morning when I run and at night when I run. Everybody I talk to said it is good to be running on heavy legs but I never get a good reason to why that is.
I talked to a few pros and they said they always try to run on tired legs because it held build endurance. Then it is always followed up with an reminder that injury could happen on over trained legs.
Any help would be great!
Just to throw a monkey wrench into everybodyās theories, I just started a new training system about 3 weeks ago that has drastically improved my running. On my two longer running day where I normally wouldnāt bike, I started doing an EASY 10 miler on the computrainer before I run. The goal is to keep the watts down in the 150 range and the heartrate in the 100/105 range. Before this my legs always felt like shit running and I was running low 8ās to 9 minute pace doing 2 to 4 mile runs. This was mostly because I was running by trying not to hurt. Now with properly warmed up legs I can easily do 6 mile runs in the 7:30/8:00 pace range depending on the heat. In addition, my legs feel better after the runs and in the ensuing days and I think I can finally start building run mileage.
Your problem may not be that you are commuting and then trying to run, the problem might be how hard of a bike ride youāre doing and then trying to run. Try cutting your bike speed by at least 2 MPH for the the entire ride and then try to run.
JJ
that is sort of my point - my track workouts are already on ātiredā legs by everyone hereās definition as it is after work. (not at the mall - wish I had that life - ok not really). I stand and walk all day, then high tail it to do repeats on the track - and yes intervals, track work, long runs etc all train us -
but there is a VERY different feeling coming off the bike - that at this point I feel pretty used to but think is important to nail that transition - the faster your legs adapt on the run the better - so many athletes go into the run placed well and then lose big time on the runā¦