If you saw the 2017 Milan-San Remo you almost certainly remember the blistering attack from Peter Sagan (Bora-Hansgrohe) on the Poggio. Only two riders could follow him and one of them, Michal Kwiatkowski (Team Sky), went on to win the race.
For Kwiatkowski to follow Sagan on the climb he had to do the following: Distance: 3.5km
**Time: **5:57 Average Power: 443W Power-to-weight: 6.51 W/kg
The numbers are highly impressive even before you consider this was after seven hours of racing — almost 300km deep. Perhaps the biggest indicator that the professionals are a step above even the best amateurs is the fact “Kwiato†needed to average 619W for the last 800m of the climb at an incredible 9.1 W/kg. The best A-grade riders would struggle to do this fresh, and certainly couldn’t seven hours into a race.
To top it off, Kwiatkowski averaged 1,149W (16.9W/kg) for the last five seconds of the race to just get past Sagan. Most amateurs are happy to see over 1,000 watts in a max sprint, and again this is without nearly 300km in their legs.
Zwift is so frustrating to me! Now I’m not great. I’m an amateur Cat 2 roadie. But I can hang in most regional-grade P12 races. I have a point of pride that I almost never get dropped from the field, and am usually able to factor in a race in some way. (Though I’m not a great finisher).
And I also understand that Zwift being global, I’m going to run into a lot of people who are just flat-out faster than me.
But when I join some podunk race of, say 30 guys, and five minutes in I’m like 20 rides back in the 3rd selection while the first 4-5 guys are doing sustained 5-6 W/kg, occasionally spending 10-20s in the 8-11 range and immediately recovering to 4-5, I have to wonder WTF is going on.
I’ve learned not to be butthurt, and to save my racing pride for real-life racing though.
Most amateurs are happy to see over 1,000 watts in a max sprint, and again this is without nearly 300km in their legs.
Sounds like some of the amateurs just aren’t very good.
1000W is for 5-10 seconds will make you an outstanding amateur. (if you’re of reasonable weight, and you can do that at the end of a tough race). Cavendish says he often sees 1100-1200W peak power. Though the biggest difference between pro and amateur, in my opinion, isn’t so much the 300km, but the 2-3km of brutally fast positioning that takes place to get into position to sprint. Much harder to hit 1000W after several minutes at 500W.
maybe in the cat 4/5 but 1000w for 5 seconds isnt great unless under 60kg by a bit… 10 secs its better depending on somethings. but again its different. Being able to hit it in training when fresher or at the end of a hard crit or hard RR is different also if you like Sagan and can float wheels of other teams well you dont need to be a better sprinter watts wise. This is why bike racing is so fun, so many factors unlike Tri which there generally is 2 to 3… your TT effort on all 3 sports, mental fortitude and for longer stuff knowing how to fuel.
443 for 6 minutes, at the end of a 7+ hour race is unreal. But MSR is on paved roads and involves a lot of drafting as it’s usually a bunch finish. Not to imply that there was a lot of coasting and soft pedaling, but it only paints a 6 minute picture which is hard for triathletes to comprehend. His full power data isn’t available, but strava does log his weighted average power for the whole race as 231w.
However, maybe a more fitting example for triathletes to relate to are the power profiles from Paris Roubaix. Because while drafting is involved, it has somewhat of a lesser effect due to the cobbles and that the race usually breaks apart many miles before the finish.
Last year Matthew Hayman released his power file after winning PR. 313 watts AP and 351 NP for just over 6 hours.
"It’s interesting to note that Hayman’s peak six-minute and 10-minute power readings came during the formation of this early breakaway, rather than in the aggressive final kilometres. During his peak six-minute effort —* from 69km to 74km — Hayman averaged 411W (5W/kg; 455W normalised) and 44.1km/h. And for his 10-minute peak effort – from 67km to 74km – he averaged 389W (4.74W/kg; 430W normalized) and 44.3km/h.**"*
This doesn’t even factor in the amount of energy his body is expending while absorbing the shock of the cobbles. I do know some Cat 3 amateurs who can put out 400+ watts for 5+ minutes (they are pretty big guys though). I also know that 231 NP for 7+ hours isn’t world class. So even though that was a world class performance by Kwiatkowski, it’s still hard to grasp how amazing it is just looking at those two numbers (443 for 6 minutes, and 231 NP for 7+ hours) numbers. But I don’t know one amateur that can even come close to 313 AP or 351 NP for 6+ hours. That’s just stupid and the numbers sink in.
dang it. You guys beat me to it. Racing on zwift, for the most part, is fun…just very humbling.
I don’t think that’s what he meant. People cheat in Zwift and under-report their weight. So their actual 170 lbs and 250W become 100 lbs and 250W in Zwift. Makes short work of Zwift hills.
Edit: to answer the topic question: HAHAHAHA! I don’t compare to pro cyclists. Their ability is astonishing. I’m jealous of their bike handling skills as well as power output as well as fitness. Being able to ride 100 miles, including climbing over a few cols, then hold 400W for the final 5 miles of positioning and then a >1000W sprint for finish? Yeah…
dang it. You guys beat me to it. Racing on zwift, for the most part, is fun…just very humbling.
I don’t think that’s what he meant. People cheat in Zwift and under-report their weight. So their actual 170 lbs and 250W become 100 lbs and 250W in Zwift. Makes short work of Zwift hills.
Edit: to answer the topic question: HAHAHAHA! I don’t compare to pro cyclists. Their ability is astonishing. I’m jealous of their bike handling skills as well as power output as well as fitness. Being able to ride 100 miles, including climbing over a few cols, then hold 400W for the final 5 miles of positioning and then a >1000W sprint for finish? Yeah…
And then do that the next day. That is the most astonishing part of the world tour pro’s ability in my opinion. As i have started doing cat 1/2 stage races i am absolutely destroyed after 3-5 days of racing, i cannot imagine a week long race, let alone a grand tour. Kiwat’s power final for MSR is quite impressive, that was also after the group hammered the Cipressa and Dumoulin put in a blistering surge up the Poggio…and Kiwat still was unable to close the gap were it not for Alaphillipe. I would guess Sagan was well over 500 for that attack.
Most amateurs are happy to see over 1,000 watts in a max sprint, and again this is without nearly 300km in their legs.
Sounds like some of the amateurs just aren’t very good.
1000W is for 5-10 seconds will make you an outstanding amateur. (if you’re of reasonable weight, and you can do that at the end of a tough race). Cavendish says he often sees 1100-1200W peak power. Though the biggest difference between pro and amateur, in my opinion, isn’t so much the 300km, but the 2-3km of brutally fast positioning that takes place to get into position to sprint. Much harder to hit 1000W after several minutes at 500W.
No it won’t. 1000w for 5 seconds isn’t impressive, even for a cat 4.
That’s not to say you couldn’t win a race with that, as positioning is so much more important, but that is not an impressive number in the least and certainly would not make you anything more than a mediocre amateur sprinter if that’s all you have at your disposal, unless maybe you’re less than 130 lbs or something. But then you probably won’t be up there to begin with.
Ahead of a World Tour race last year, I was racing a DL Du in the same city, and many teams were doing their final shakeout rides, and a few made their way onto the course… I was riding with one other guy half way into the bike leg, when a group of 6 of them jumped onto our wheel and took a tow for a few km, they never pulled through, they just sat in while me and the other guy were rotating pulls… at one point, we turned into the beginning of the home stretch back to the t-zone (where we caught a tailwind) and I put in a pull and rode the 6 of them off my wheel (the guy I was working with hung in there)… I’ll chalk that up as a win for us… (never mind the fact that I was riding full pin, and they were sitting in easily and chatting in a mixture of German and Flemish behind us, other than the odd shout of “allez allez allez” for us to keep the pace up, or that their being dropped was likely the moto officials reminding them to stay to the outside of the course to not influence the race going on). I was ready to retire after that one…
People cheat in Zwift and under-report their weight. So their actual 170 lbs and 250W become 100 lbs and 250W in Zwift. Makes short work of Zwift hills.