This is NOT against Speedplay. I’m the idiot here.
I did the custom drilled shoes. I also have “altered” the c-clip to be looser by bending it a hair as I found the factory c-clip in the cleat so ridiculous that no matter how I attached the cleats you couldn’t engage the pedal/cleat interface.
So, chicken and egg. Is it both, the lower stack, or the c-clip, or neither that cause me to machine a groove in my pedal spindles?
I post a LOT in the aerosensor topic. I had bad data start showing up recently. I was looking at some bad CdA figures for same fit. No changes. So looked for bad chain, brake rub, and found the groove. I can stick my fingernail in it.
It’s not so bad a groove to toss the pedals, but…I need to fix the cause. I’m betting on the looser c-clip. I did it to both pairs of shoes and both exhibit the same wear on the cleat. So my guess is the side of the c-clip I opened up is the side closer the spindle, and doing so allows the cleat to rock in the pedal.
But, I sincerely do not remember just after bending the c-clip having any rocking motion with the cleat/pedal interface. Sooooo, did I also wear out the grooves in the pedal so the c-clip is looser in it?
For now I can swap to my roadie pedal/shoes. But need to figure this out. Thanks.
As for the cleat C-clip, there’s a reason they recommend both using even tightness on the pedal bolts and not overtightening them. In short, your pedal is too tight which causes it to bind. This may be made worse by what you did to drill your shoes.
Personally I’d also ditch the pedals. Again, I’d need to see pictures, but you will likely eventually fatigue crack through the spindle, which wont be fun. You may be able to save them by blending it out. Either way I definitely wouldn’t leave it.
Why would you think altering the c clip was a wise move? Just properly install a new set of cleats and use them for a few weeks and they will be easier to clip in and out. Make sure to keep the cleats lubed and clean.
Not sure the spindles are damaged enough to warrant replacing by your description, but may be worth reaching out to speedplay to confirm to be safe.
Depending on the type of lube I put on the c-clip, sometimes they’re even too easy to get out of for a while. Really no reason to mess with them beyond lubing
I noticed a little roughness in one of my speedplays and started going down a rabbit whole to putt all ten or so pair apart that I’ve collected over the years. These range from almost new to crashed so bad or so worn out there are just for parts now. I was shocked to see how deep of a grove that the needle bearing had carved into the spindle, mostly on one side of it as well. Other than buying after market spindles (I like the 50mm version anyway) I’ve sorted these ones into ziplock bags for parts at this point.
And I’ve never removed the c-clip from most of the pedal bodies to switch the bearings. As for the c clip in the cleats, they are stiff at first but after about 20ish times of clipping in and out they tend to “break inâ€.
Why would you think altering the c clip was a wise move? Just properly install a new set of cleats and use them for a few weeks and they will be easier to clip in and out. Make sure to keep the cleats lubed and clean.
Not sure the spindles are damaged enough to warrant replacing by your description, but may be worth reaching out to speedplay to confirm to be safe.
My experience with the Zeros was that yea, a new set of cleats was actually pretty hard to clip into. They did break in.
If you ride with worn cleats, that can be another reason the spindle gets grooved, I think. I agree that there’s no good reason to modify the c-clip.
I’m just going to swap the pedals to the indoor trainer setup until they engage properly without messing with the c-clip. Just clip in and out several times per indoor Z2 ride.
As a side note though, when I installed the Speedplay branded cleats on these shoes, it was very obvious that the metal retainer cage that holds the c-clip in with the plastic parts was from the factory very “bowed” inwards toward the c-clip. So, no matter how loose you made the install screws…the retaining cage was going to mash the shit out of the clip. So there IMO was some manufacturing variability of the outer metal cage parts of some kind.
You cannot run the screws so loose that your cleats wobble on your shoe. That’s how loose on the original shoe cleat adapter I had to run them to not mash the c-clip on the cleats I had. Then that’s why I bent the c-clip.
Not sure i understand the issue, but long time Speedplay user here. Could the issue be one of old or used-up grease? This would be the only reason i could see excessive wear on the spindle. I repack the grease at the end of every season. Both pedals function just fine, but one pedal bleeds more grease that the other, so i keep an eye on that.
Not sure i understand the issue, but long time Speedplay user here. Could the issue be one of old or used-up grease? This would be the only reason i could see excessive wear on the spindle. I repack the grease at the end of every season. Both pedals function just fine, but one pedal bleeds more grease that the other, so i keep an eye on that.
It wasn’t a spindle lube issue, it was how I was setting up the cleats. This caused the cleat to wobble in/out when engaged and the inside edge of the cleat on my foot was grinding into the pedal spindle.
I was doing something odd to the cleat to get the c-clip looser for engagement because there was no amount of looseness to the cleat screws I could install them brand-new that would allow the cleat to engage the pedal.
So, totally my own fault, but was something I did because the only way I could ever get the cleat screws to not bind the c-clip to clip into the pedals was to have the cleat screws so loose the cleat would move. Which is a non-starter unacceptable situation.
I’ve ordered new cleats and will not be doing the same screwup as before, but, will be wearing them in on Z2 inside rides on the trainer by clipping in/out a lot to wear them in.
Whether it is manufacturing or design, you shouldn’t have a design that so many people have problems installing without binding the c-clip. If you have that many people who cannot get them installed properly, that’s not right. Personal opinion. It was my fault to bend the c-clip to make it looser to clip in.
I’ve been following this thread with interest as I’ve been using Speedplays for over 20 years - always X2s until just recently getting a pair of zeros. Every pair of pedals (except the zeros, so far) have grooves worn on the spindles, with deep grooves on all of the right pedals and very light grooves on the left pedals. I have no idea why this happens, but I’ve wondered if I have an inside-outside pedaling motion or something; I think my knees brush very close to the top tube compared to others. For example, I don’t use the top tube storage unit on my P5 because I brushed against it on almost every pedal stroke and I’ve never heard anyone else complain about that. Any ideas?
I’ve been following this thread with interest as I’ve been using Speedplays for over 20 years - always X2s until just recently getting a pair of zeros. Every pair of pedals (except the zeros, so far) have grooves worn on the spindles, with deep grooves on all of the right pedals and very light grooves on the left pedals. I have no idea why this happens, but I’ve wondered if I have an inside-outside pedaling motion or something; I think my knees brush very close to the top tube compared to others. For example, I don’t use the top tube storage unit on my P5 because I brushed against it on almost every pedal stroke and I’ve never heard anyone else complain about that. Any ideas?
It’s the knee to top tube motion. It rocks the cleat/shoe to the inside and the inside edge of the cleat rubs the spindle. Which it shouldn’t do.
I ride the TT bike that way on purpose for the aero. My road bike and cross bike don’t have Speedplays so I couldn’t care less how I pedal those. Within reason of course.
Interesting to hear folks see this that haven’t modified the cleat in any way.
Either way…there is clearly tangible power loss as it’s tossing my aero testing sensor numbers to the tune of going from about .210 to .245 CdA with zero tire/bike/fit changes otherwise. That’s serious power loss. The meter reads it, but the force isn’t all used to move forward. Plenty is spent tearing up the cleat/spindle.
I pressed the shoe onto the pedal off the bike and then tilted it inboard to simulate this and the rub on the spindle felt “significant” as I turned the pedals over.
As for the zero stack direct mount to shoe part, that ain’t it. As it is the cleat that is wearing into the spindle, not the shoe. The shoe wouldn’t dig the spindle unless the cleat wore itself totally gone and the stack of the cleat is irrelevant since it is above the cleat on the top side, not the bottom.
Either way…there is clearly tangible power loss as it’s tossing my aero testing sensor numbers to the tune of going from about .210 to .245 CdA with zero tire/bike/fit changes otherwise. That’s serious power loss. The meter reads it, but the force isn’t all used to move forward. Plenty is spent tearing up the cleat/spindle.
I do not understand this. I don’t see how power measured by a crank based power meter is not used to move the bike forward. I suspect there is more than one problem going on and you may be on a false path to explain you .210 to .245.
Thanks… that makes sense. One other thing consistent with an inside-out pedaling motion is that I attach the cleats pretty much in the much of the range of attachment (left-to-right) and after extended periods of riding (months) the cleats will end up pushed over to the extreme inside edge. But, if I understand correctly, you are saying there is nothing inherently bad to pedal with this motion and that it has aero benefits… it’s just that any advantage may be lost if I’m grinding away at the spindles. Do I have that right? I suppose the yellow rubber walkable cleats (that come with the aero zeros, for example) prevent the grinding? I’ll have to look closely later.
Either way…there is clearly tangible power loss as it’s tossing my aero testing sensor numbers to the tune of going from about .210 to .245 CdA with zero tire/bike/fit changes otherwise. That’s serious power loss. The meter reads it, but the force isn’t all used to move forward. Plenty is spent tearing up the cleat/spindle.
I do not understand this. I don’t see how power measured by a crank based power meter is not used to move the bike forward. I suspect there is more than one problem going on and you may be on a false path to explain you .210 to .245.
Drawing a free-body diagram I got…
Force, leg = Force, chain + Force, pedal loss
Force, chain = Force, leg - Force, pedal loss
Force, leg is what the meter measures. Then gets power from that at the distance of the crank and the rpm. Force, chain is what is delivered to the rear wheel.
Leg force works against anything that is a force in the opposite direction, such as the chain on the chain ring…or the loss in the pedal spindle.
Same deal if the bottom bracket in a bike is toast. It acts the same way in the free-body diagram. The resultant force is working against your leg force, which is what your meter measures. So a meter would see all 300w you put into a bad pedal spindle or bottom bracket, but the chain won’t see all of it.
Either way…there is clearly tangible power loss as it’s tossing my aero testing sensor numbers to the tune of going from about .210 to .245 CdA with zero tire/bike/fit changes otherwise. That’s serious power loss. The meter reads it, but the force isn’t all used to move forward. Plenty is spent tearing up the cleat/spindle.
I do not understand this. I don’t see how power measured by a crank based power meter is not used to move the bike forward. I suspect there is more than one problem going on and you may be on a false path to explain you .210 to .245.
Drawing a free-body diagram I got…
Force, leg = Force, chain + Force, pedal loss
Force, chain = Force, leg - Force, pedal loss
Force, leg is what the meter measures. Then gets power from that at the distance of the crank and the rpm. Force, chain is what is delivered to the rear wheel.
Leg force works against anything that is a force in the opposite direction, such as the chain on the chain ring…or the loss in the pedal spindle.
Same deal if the bottom bracket in a bike is toast. It acts the same way in the free-body diagram. The resultant force is working against your leg force, which is what your meter measures. So a meter would see all 300w you put into a bad pedal spindle or bottom bracket, but the chain won’t see all of it.
How can it do that if the losses happen before the measuring point in the spider/crank? A worn bottom bracket on the other hand is on the other side of the measuring point when using a crank based power meter. If you measured power at the pedals it might be a different story.
Not sure i understand the issue, but long time Speedplay user here. Could the issue be one of old or used-up grease? This would be the only reason i could see excessive wear on the spindle. I repack the grease at the end of every season. Both pedals function just fine, but one pedal bleeds more grease that the other, so i keep an eye on that.
I think this wouldn’t cause the spindle to get grooved. This is caused by part of the cleat rubbing up against the spindle.
If you don’t change the grease, that should accelerate wear on the bearings. I know my old X1s started creaking after some time when I couldn’t be bothered to regrease them. The reason I couldn’t be bothered was because I’d use the grease gun in the port, but grease would squirt out around the plastic cap, which was really annoying because I’d lose more grease out the wrong side than would come out on the spindle side. Really, I should have just disassembled the pedals. Anyway, I don’t think failure to grease the bearings would cause the pedals to wear such that the spindle and the cleat start to wear on each other.
Most shoes can’t simply be drilled out to accept Speedplay cleats without the adapter plate, the sole needs to be flattened. If you had to alter the spring (c-clip) to get in to the pedal, the sole of your shoe probably isn’t flat enough to allow the pedal to function properly (even if you have shimmed it in some way). This interface really wants to be ruler flat. If it isn’t, it’s bending the spring, causing it to bind and increasing tension/entry force.
Altering the c-clip/spring definitely isn’t the way to solve this. As you have experienced, this allows your foot to “toggle” on the pedal (lateral/medial wobble) which results in shoe coming in contact with pedal spindle. It’s likely barely noticeable at first, but increases in magnitude really quickly when you alter the spring (this also happens as the spring starts to wear out, which you basically just simulated artificially). When that happens, the spindles develop a groove pretty quickly. Seen it plenty of times.
That’s a helluva risky place to introduce a stress riser, and it would be a definite no-go for me if it’s as deep as it sounds like from your description.
Are these power meter pedals? That’s the only way I could see this introducing error into your PM readings. You’re likely introducing a tiny bit of loss into your system, but it’s all upstream of anything but a pedal based meter…
I’ve been following this thread with interest as I’ve been using Speedplays for over 20 years - always X2s until just recently getting a pair of zeros. Every pair of pedals (except the zeros, so far) have grooves worn on the spindles, with deep grooves on all of the right pedals and very light grooves on the left pedals. I have no idea why this happens, but I’ve wondered if I have an inside-outside pedaling motion or something; I think my knees brush very close to the top tube compared to others. For example, I don’t use the top tube storage unit on my P5 because I brushed against it on almost every pedal stroke and I’ve never heard anyone else complain about that. Any ideas?
My experience is very similar to your’s. I’ve used Speedplays exclusively since their initial model, and every single set of pedals I’ve used over nearly 30 years has shown some degree of visible wear, if not an outright groove on the spindles.
Most shoes can’t simply be drilled out to accept Speedplay cleats without the adapter plate, the sole needs to be flattened. If you had to alter the spring (c-clip) to get in to the pedal, the sole of your shoe probably isn’t flat enough to allow the pedal to function properly (even if you have shimmed it in some way). This interface really wants to be ruler flat. If it isn’t, it’s bending the spring, causing it to bind and increasing tension/entry force.
Altering the c-clip/spring definitely isn’t the way to solve this. As you have experienced, this allows your foot to “toggle” on the pedal (lateral/medial wobble) which results in shoe coming in contact with pedal spindle. It’s likely barely noticeable at first, but increases in magnitude really quickly when you alter the spring (this also happens as the spring starts to wear out, which you basically just simulated artificially). When that happens, the spindles develop a groove pretty quickly. Seen it plenty of times.
That’s a helluva risky place to introduce a stress riser, and it would be a definite no-go for me if it’s as deep as it sounds like from your description.
Are these power meter pedals? That’s the only way I could see this introducing error into your PM readings. You’re likely introducing a tiny bit of loss into your system, but it’s all upstream of anything but a pedal based meter…
For the first part, I had the tightness issue with the adapter plate included with the cleats/pedals. Not when I had drilled the shoes. So that point is simply not the case here. There’s still a tolerance/design problem if you cannot tighten the screws at all even when using the adapter plate. I bought them new, installed the adapter plate, and had the screws so loose the cleat moved. That’s a design/mfg issue.
For the second part…dual sided power meter. It would read resistance coming from the opposite side but not the same side you’re applying power. Make sense? So you see half the loss, not both sides at once.
Either way…there is clearly tangible power loss as it’s tossing my aero testing sensor numbers to the tune of going from about .210 to .245 CdA with zero tire/bike/fit changes otherwise. That’s serious power loss. The meter reads it, but the force isn’t all used to move forward. Plenty is spent tearing up the cleat/spindle.
I do not understand this. I don’t see how power measured by a crank based power meter is not used to move the bike forward. I suspect there is more than one problem going on and you may be on a false path to explain you .210 to .245.
I need to get home in front of my GC, but same roads today with the Shimano pedals and was much more in line with what I’m used to.
Speedplays: 2 u-turns on route, 219w AP, 22.8mph, 364ft in 16.9mi for 21.5 ft/mi
Shimano: 8 u-turns on route, 208w AP, 23.1mph, 512ft in 19.1mi for 26.8 ft/mi
Soooo, unless there’s some super magical wind play today that shows up in the GC data…on the Shimano pedals I’m not rubbing I went 0.3mph faster on 11 fewer watts with more elevation per mile and 6 more u-turns tossed in. The 6 extra u-turns being a HUGE time/speed cost today but I was still faster on less power.