Anyone riding hookless rims?
What’s are your thoughts on it?
Any issues?
My thoughts is that it is a good way for a manufacturer to save money as hooked rims require a bit more time and skill to produce. The might be a little stronger. My biggest gripe is that you can really not run more that 70 psi. If you look at Silca’s tire pressure chart, even a 28 on smooth pavement is recommended to around 85-90 psi. Also I just like the security of a hooked rim. Until I have no other choice, I’ll ride hooked rims.
Anyone riding hookless rims?
What’s are your thoughts on it?
Any issues?
Flo cycling recently did a podcast on this. Worth a listen.
Anyone riding hookless rims?
What’s are your thoughts on it?
Any issues?
I have not tried them and I am not going to. For me they are a solution without a problem, and can bring additional problems of their own. This is the industry trying to force a cheaper manufacturing process onto consumers for no real benefit, and with some potentially dangerous down sides. Especially for people like my wife who simply cannot operate a track pump with a pressure gauge correctly!!! Over inflation a real danger with these systems.
I am going to stick with clincher tires, latex tubes, and hooked rims.
Anyone riding hookless rims?
What’s are your thoughts on it?
Any issues?
I bought a set of Zipp 404 Firecrest in Dec 2021, I ride them with 30mm Continental S TR tyres inflated @65psi as recommended by the Silca and Sram tyre pressure calculators. I love them. Easy to set up. Had just two punctures requiring a plug in over 20k km. Seem to roll fast and I have zero complaints.
I can’t see any reason why people would be worried about hookless.
I can’t see any reason why people would be worried about hookless.
I am struggling to see what the benefit of hookless is at this point in time.
- The big deal is supposed to be ease of production. Has this benefit turned into a price reduction ? Based on the price of new Zipps, I am not seeing this
- I will be limited in tire choice. For example a 28mm tire on a 25mm inner wheel is now apparently not recommended. Sure I can go to 30, but if I believe for example in the 105% rule, or there is a clearance issue, or I don’t believe wide tires are as aero, I am out of luck
- I am limited in tire pressure. So for smooth surfaces, I am probably not optimized
What other advantages have I overlooked ?
So you can say #2 and #3 are marginal but why would I do it if all I get is #1, which I don’t really get ?
Add a safety consideration that is probably very minor or negligeable, but why would I even risk it ?
If one day we see data that shows that #2 and #3 are not valid…maybe.
If one day a super tire is available in hookless only …yes.
But I still need to see an advantage and I am still struggling to see it.
It sounds like tech that will evolved and in a few years may be the way to go, but are we there yet ? Tires/safety is not something I want to be on the bleeding edge.
Next year will be my first purchase of disc brake wheel for TT, so I am trying to figure this out.
I’m considering buying the new Cadex tri bike. I’m a sucker for wheels like the Hed tri spokes so the new Cadex 4 spoke wheel has my interest. They’re hookless and tubeless so that’s uncharted territory for me. Everything sounds easier though. 🤷â€â™‚ï¸
Plus the 4-spoke wheel looks great on that bike. But they’re pricey.
The other wheel options I’m considering are the Hed Vanquish RC Pro or Bontrager Aeolus RSL. Both of which run about $1,000 cheaper than the Cadex and are hooked.
Have been using hookless with Zipp 303 FCs on one gravel bike for about two years now and have no issues, mounting was very easy. I run tubeless on my roadie also but hooked as I need the higher psi on 25s, not enough clearance for 28s.
I can’t see any reason why people would be worried about hookless.
I am struggling to see what the benefit of hookless is at this point in time.
- The big deal is supposed to be ease of production. Has this benefit turned into a price reduction ? Based on the price of new Zipps, I am not seeing this
- I will be limited in tire choice. For example a 28mm tire on a 25mm inner wheel is now apparently not recommended. Sure I can go to 30, but if I believe for example in the 105% rule, or there is a clearance issue, or I don’t believe wide tires are as aero, I am out of luck
- I am limited in tire pressure. So for smooth surfaces, I am probably not optimized
What other advantages have I overlooked ?
So you can say #2 and #3 are marginal but why would I do it if all I get is #1, which I don’t really get ?
Add a safety consideration that is probably very minor or negligeable, but why would I even risk it ?
If one day we see data that shows that #2 and #3 are not valid…maybe.
If one day a super tire is available in hookless only …yes.
But I still need to see an advantage and I am still struggling to see it.
It sounds like tech that will evolved and in a few years may be the way to go, but are we there yet ? Tires/safety is not something I want to be on the bleeding edge.
Next year will be my first purchase of disc brake wheel for TT, so I am trying to figure this out.
Quite honestly you are over thinking it. Tyre choice is not an issue, plenty of good options for hookless from multiple manufacturers, but quite frankly why would you use any tyre on the road other than a Conti 5000s TR??? If you are running a 28mm tyre tubeless why would you need more than 70psi??? More than 70psi is just slow. Unless of course you weigh 100+kg??? Choose the rims that most suit you. Don’t worry whether they have hooks or not.
Quite honestly you are over thinking it.
Maybe. But before I plop down $3000 for a set of wheels (a la Zipp) and there is a hint of safety, I like to do “due diligence”
Tyre choice is not an issue, plenty of good options for hookless from multiple manufacturers,
One reason I would go to hookless is if I thought hooked would be harder to get in the future, I would consider hookless. Probably not an issue
As I said, if I believe 28 is faster from an aero perspective, but I can’t ride 28 (which it sounds like you can’t) why would I want this ?
but quite frankly why would you use any tyre on the road other than a Conti 5000s TR???
Best tire does vary, year to year
If you are running a 28mm tyre tubeless why would you need more than 70psi??? More than 70psi is just slow. Unless of course you weigh 100+kg??? Choose the rims that most suit you. Don’t worry whether they have hooks or not.
Silca calculator on smooth roads says 82.5 PSI for 75kg + bike
So maybe I’m overthinking it, but I am struggling to see a reason to buy a hookless wheel. I see no upside and potential downside
BTW, the consideration is for a race wheel
Quite honestly you are over thinking it.
Maybe. But before I plop down $3000 for a set of wheels (a la Zipp) and there is a hint of safety, I like to do “due diligence”
Tyre choice is not an issue, plenty of good options for hookless from multiple manufacturers,
One reason I would go to hookless is if I thought hooked would be harder to get in the future, I would consider hookless. Probably not an issue
As I said, if I believe 28 is faster from an aero perspective, but I can’t ride 28 (which it sounds like you can’t) why would I want this ?
but quite frankly why would you use any tyre on the road other than a Conti 5000s TR???
Best tire does vary, year to year
If you are running a 28mm tyre tubeless why would you need more than 70psi??? More than 70psi is just slow. Unless of course you weigh 100+kg??? Choose the rims that most suit you. Don’t worry whether they have hooks or not.
Silca calculator on smooth roads says 82.5 PSI for 75kg + bike
So maybe I’m overthinking it, but I am struggling to see a reason to buy a hookless wheel. I see no upside and potential downside
BTW, the consideration is for a race wheel
Take care with the Silca calculator. I doubt that you should be riding 83psi if you weigh 75kg. The inputs can make a big difference. Firstly must use measured width, not nominal width, my Conti’s are almost 2mm wider than the nominal width. Also be realistic on the pavement, not many places where the road is truly “smoothâ€â€¦â€¦I would suggest that 90% of roads are in the slightly rougher categories……selecting the correct road type also makes a big difference in their calculator - it’s why velodrome riders still use 120psi whereas most road riders are in the 60-70psi range.
Take care with the Silca calculator. I doubt that you should be riding 83psi if you weigh 75kg. The inputs can make a big difference. Firstly must use measured width, not nominal width, my Conti’s are almost 2mm wider than the nominal width. Also be realistic on the pavement, not many places where the road is truly “smoothâ€â€¦â€¦I would suggest that 90% of roads are in the slightly rougher categories……selecting the correct road type also makes a big difference in their calculator - it’s why velodrome riders still use 120psi whereas most road riders are in the 60-70psi range.
Agreed. But why lose the option of going 85 ?
What are the upsides of going hookless ?
Gman said he liked the look of the wheel. Valid.
A person is a Zipp fan. Perfectly valid.
If a bike comes with a hookless wheel, sure.
But I am not seeing a lot of technical reasons to go hookless. If they exist I want to understand them.
I am going to stick with clincher tires, latex tubes, and hooked rims.
right?
not sure is worth changing from this set up yet unless people is talking about gravel.
for road bikes this is the way
I’m still not convinced that a hookless (or even non hookless) wheel optimized for a 27-28 mm tire is faster than a clincher or tlr wheel optimized for a 23 or 25 mm tire on a typical road race course or triathlon course.
Even if it was, you can’t run the conti TT or corsa speeds on hookless wheels.
Mtb - yes
Grave/rough roads with big tires and slower speeds - getting there but waiting for next generation to test the waters.
Going fast or mountainous Roads - no
Track - absolutely not.
My thoughts is that it is a good way for a manufacturer to save money as hooked rims require a bit more time and skill to produce. The might be a little stronger. My biggest gripe is that you can really not run more that 70 psi. If you look at Silca’s tire pressure chart, even a 28 on smooth pavement is recommended to around 85-90 psi. Also I just like the security of a hooked rim. Until I have no other choice, I’ll ride hooked rims.
i am interested to see whether Josh thinks his tire pressure calculator is up to date. Josh and Tom Anhalt the vanguard of the low pressure revolution, Tom especially. but, for them, low meant (say) 85psi rather than 110 or 120psi. these were good pressures for 25mm tires, but all off this began around 2006 to 2009. this is when a number of people - including but not limited to Tom - found that lower pressures were not slower and that indeed might be faster. but this was always and only in the context of 25mm tires (or smaller) and in traditional tubed systems.
if we were still riding that tech i’d say there’s no reason for hookless beads nor for pressures below 85psi. but…
what’s happened in the interim is tubeless, for starters. well, 2 things really: tubeless, and disc brakes, and that latter might seem off-topic, but that latter innovation meant that: 1) wheel makers did not have to contemplate brake tracks; and 2) they didn’t have to worry about high temps at the bead. so…
for those who feel they want to remain riding traditional latex tubed systems, that’s a good system. but while there are certainly holdouts i personally don’t know or know of anybody at the highest levels of racing (road or tri) who still rides that tech. everyone is either riding tubeless or tubular and the move away from tubular remains apace.
how does this relate to hookless? first, back to the silca tire pressure calculator. i hope Josh will chime in because i think that calculator is out of date, by quite a few years, and ironically out of date high (the pressures are too high). i suspect that’s the case because Josh probably has not had any good reason to prioritize changing those values to reflect tubeless, or to consider what wheel and tire makers are saying themselves about the pressures in their systems at 28mm and up. i don’t know ANY wheel or tire maker who feels those values are correct for tubeless. the pressures are low for 2013, but they’re high for 2023, esp at 28mm and larger.
the debate over tubeless is done. tubeless wins over tubed systems. i’m sure some will say “not so fast!” but in the spring classics this year, for example, who was riding a tube? except the tube that’s inside a sew-up?
the next big question is tire width and width per use case. road? all the classics are getting ridden on 28mm and 30mm tires and that’s not really a stretch because in the old days, before the gavia was paved, you had a lot of rideable dirt in the grand tours, along with cobbles in the classics, and 27mm to 30mm tires were common. (but in tubies, of course, such as the clement paris roubaix (27mm) and campion del mundo (30mm). but then we went to skinny tires and now we’re back out to the investigation of fat tires again and i know the owner of a major team who’s not only all in on tubeless, but that team would be road racing - on smoother roads - on 30mm tires were it not for the clearance limits of the frames of his bike sponsor.
it is my guess that 28mm is the new 25mm, just as 10 or 15 years ago 25mm became the new 23mm. if you go back to the late 80s, time trial tires were 19mm and 20mm and we’re way past that obviously. we’re still looking for the best tire width for road race, TT and tri. i got a toilet flushed on my head here on this forum by Tom and others back 6 or so years ago when i said that we can’t yet list the value of a disc brake in a tri bike because we don’t yet know what tech will be unleashed by getting out of rim brake caliper jail. i think we’re seeing this now.
if 28mm is the road tire width (or even 30mm or 32mm depending on the event), and if you’re riding tubeless, then hookless makes all kinds of sense. the highest pressure you’ll see is about 60psi, 65psi exceptionally (depending on rider weight and road surface). i’ve used most of the hookless road rims in existence, i’ve never blown a (hookless conforming) tire off any hookless rim. yes, the bead hook is an extra layer of protection for sure. but that is really not an issue at 28mm and larger because of the low pressures. really, the question is what tire do you intend to ride. if you’re sure it’s 25mm, in my opinion forego hookless. if 28mm and up, there is no downside to hookless, and notable upsides.
if 28mm and up, there is no downside to hookless, and notable upsides.
For the consumer, what are those upsides ? (specifically for road and tri, no gravel)
And on the topic of 28mm, have you heard of the recommendation to not use a 28 on a 25mm rim ?
My thoughts is that it is a good way for a manufacturer to save money as hooked rims require a bit more time and skill to produce. The might be a little stronger. My biggest gripe is that you can really not run more that 70 psi. If you look at Silca’s tire pressure chart, even a 28 on smooth pavement is recommended to around 85-90 psi. Also I just like the security of a hooked rim. Until I have no other choice, I’ll ride hooked rims.
i am interested to see whether Josh thinks his tire pressure calculator is up to date. Josh and Tom Anhalt the vanguard of the low pressure revolution, Tom especially. but, for them, low meant (say) 85psi rather than 110 or 120psi. these were good pressures for 25mm tires, but all off this began around 2006 to 2009. this is when a number of people - including but not limited to Tom - found that lower pressures were not slower and that indeed might be faster. but this was always and only in the context of 25mm tires (or smaller) and in traditional tubed systems.
if we were still riding that tech i’d say there’s no reason for hookless beads nor for pressures below 85psi. but…
what’s happened in the interim is tubeless, for starters. well, 2 things really: tubeless, and disc brakes, and that latter might seem off-topic, but that latter innovation meant that: 1) wheel makers did not have to contemplate brake tracks; and 2) they didn’t have to worry about high temps at the bead. so…
for those who feel they want to remain riding traditional latex tubed systems, that’s a good system. but while there are certainly holdouts i personally don’t know or know of anybody at the highest levels of racing (road or tri) who still rides that tech. everyone is either riding tubeless or tubular and the move away from tubular remains apace.
how does this relate to hookless? first, back to the silca tire pressure calculator. i hope Josh will chime in because i think that calculator is out of date, by quite a few years, and ironically out of date high (the pressures are too high). i suspect that’s the case because Josh probably has not had any good reason to prioritize changing those values to reflect tubeless, or to consider what wheel and tire makers are saying themselves about the pressures in their systems at 28mm and up. i don’t know ANY wheel or tire maker who feels those values are correct for tubeless. the pressures are low for 2013, but they’re high for 2023, esp at 28mm and larger.
the debate over tubeless is done. tubeless wins over tubed systems. i’m sure some will say “not so fast!” but in the spring classics this year, for example, who was riding a tube? except the tube that’s inside a sew-up?
the next big question is tire width and width per use case. road? all the classics are getting ridden on 28mm and 30mm tires and that’s not really a stretch because in the old days, before the gavia was paved, you had a lot of rideable dirt in the grand tours, along with cobbles in the classics, and 27mm to 30mm tires were common. (but in tubies, of course, such as the clement paris roubaix (27mm) and campion del mundo (30mm). but then we went to skinny tires and now we’re back out to the investigation of fat tires again and i know the owner of a major team who’s not only all in on tubeless, but that team would be road racing - on smoother roads - on 30mm tires were it not for the clearance limits of the frames of his bike sponsor.
it is my guess that 28mm is the new 25mm, just as 10 or 15 years ago 25mm became the new 23mm. if you go back to the late 80s, time trial tires were 19mm and 20mm and we’re way past that obviously. we’re still looking for the best tire width for road race, TT and tri. i got a toilet flushed on my head here on this forum by Tom and others back 6 or so years ago when i said that we can’t yet list the value of a disc brake in a tri bike because we don’t yet know what tech will be unleashed by getting out of rim brake caliper jail. i think we’re seeing this now.
if 28mm is the road tire width (or even 30mm or 32mm depending on the event), and if you’re riding tubeless, then hookless makes all kinds of sense. the highest pressure you’ll see is about 60psi, 65psi exceptionally (depending on rider weight and road surface). i’ve used most of the hookless road rims in existence, i’ve never blown a (hookless conforming) tire off any hookless rim. yes, the bead hook is an extra layer of protection for sure. but that is really not an issue at 28mm and larger because of the low pressures. really, the question is what tire do you intend to ride. if you’re sure it’s 25mm, in my opinion forego hookless. if 28mm and up, there is no downside to hookless, and notable upsides.
Hopefully he will chime in, but I think it stays fairly updated. The recommendations are from 20mm track tires to 50mm gravel tires and likely beyond. Maybe the algorithm was based on 25’s and that needs to change. But based on wording on the calculator I’m led to believe it it up to date…
Flo’s recommended pressures are above what hookless allows as well. The only charts I can find recommending lower pressures as ideal is Zipp and Enve. This is not an accident as they have hookless rims…
if 28mm and up, there is no downside to hookless, and notable upsides.
For the consumer, what are those upsides? And on the topic of 28mm, have you heard of the recommendation to not use a 28 on a 25mm rim ?
second question first. i have not heard that. the ETRTO states that a 2mm differential is minimum, so, you can ride a 28mm in a 25mm internal width and so on. however, in my own use i’ve found that a 5mm to 7mm differential is ideal. so, i’m now riding a 28mm on a 22.4mm internal bead width (those are the new vittorias i just reviewed on the front page), and i’m riding a 32mm tire on a 25mm internal bead width. i think 28/23 is a really good match.
first question: upsides are that in certain cases you can get a very high quality wheel at a price below what it would’ve cost with a bead hook (e.g., zipp 303 S). we’re too early yet to see the commoditization of this tech. but it’s easier to make a wheel, so getting really high tech carbon wheels at a good price is in our near future i suspect. there hasn’t been a reason for wheel makers to prosecute hookless because there hasn’t been enough available conforming tires. that is changing (and changed bigly this week).
it’s also easier to drill down on the things you really want to make better in a wheel if you don’t have to fart around with the bead hook. the wheel also has one less failure point, and one less stress point. you might remember the disagreement between ENVE and challenge. there is also a benefit to tire makers because they don’t have to contemplate that stress point in the manufacture of their tires.