Hookless - I Have Questions

This piece just came out about the hookless drama, which seems reasonably neutral, discusses safety, and dispels what seems to be some ignorance brewing in the media hype cycle. (nice writing, Dan!). I have questions.

I was going to ask Dan a single follow-up question to the article but realized I had many more questions, some of which are probably better answered by some of the users of this forum. I would love to have facts presented with some indication of the confidence level in the answers given. Statements like “n=1” or “I’m an engineer specializing in carbon bicycle wheels” are helpful for personal context too. :slight_smile:

First, I had two overarching questions which are what led me to the longer list of specific questions below.
**Market Curiosity: **Does it seem to you that hookless is a sufficiently large step backwards in the non-riding parts of the user experience that the detriments outweigh the benefits too much for hookless to take off in the market completely like disc brakes did? Or is it just a matter of learning and time?Decision-driving: Do the tradeoffs lean in favor of me purchasing hookless for my wife’s next race wheelset? (I don’t race seriously and only use hand-me-down components from my wife).I realize what I really need are answers to specific questions. I need to know the reported benefits and tradeoffs, and their veracities and magnitudes.

Accordingly, here are some specific questions. I’ve written the questions as simply as possible. We could also add: “if so, by how much, how variable is it, how sure are we, and how did we come to those conclusions?” If answers are “it depends” and you can contribute, I’ll be appreciative.
Are hookless more aero?Do hookless create lower rolling resistance? (assuming optimized mounting and inflation of hookless and hooked)Do hookless weigh less?Do hookless offer traction benefits during cornering?Do hookless offer traction benefits during braking?How much more or less sealant do hookless tires use?Are hookless physically easier or more challenging or more involved to mount?Is the understanding that there are tighter tolerances to hookless inflation and mounting, than for hooked, an accurate understanding? Are the tighter tolerances going to matter much to me if I’m usually setting pressure to within 5-10psi of what I think is optimal, on a daily basis, and within 1-2psi of what I think is optimal on most race days? As in, if I’m already paying reasonable attention to pressure, do I just need to learn what pressures work and then it’ll be the same workload for me?Is there ANY data on the rate of catastrophic tire or wheel failure while in use? Or is it all anecdote at the moment? Does that data even exist compiled somewhere for any other piece of tech specifically?If anyone has any data they care to share from “garage failures” of real humans doing real stupid things and experiencing bad outcomes, I’d love to see that. (probably would have to come from a tire or wheel manufacturers customer service department that is deciding it’s good to be transparent here.)How much savings does hookless create for wheel manufacturers on a per-wheel basis? (ie. how much cost-savings could be passed to the consumer if they decided to optimize their systems for passing on savings to consumer for market reasons or otherwise, instead of spending the manufacturing cost savings on some other benefit in the wheel manufacturing process?)What other questions am I overlooking?

Bonus points if this thread serves as a good discussion place for future reasonable discussion on all things hookless vs hooked.

Relevant context on my experience and knowledge: I’ve taken 2-3 years off the race scene and am moving back in. I’m new to hookless, except for one ride on a borrowed bike, which went fine. I’m pretty new to this conversation. I’ve skimmed a few threads and articles and it’s all still a bit murky to me if consensus is forming.

Maybe add one question : can the 72.5 PSI limit imposed by hookless introduce performance penalties under specific conditions (rider weight/surface type/tire size) ?

This is kinda like watching a B grade horror movie, They open the door to the basement - it’s pitch black down there, and you can hear all kinds of horrible noises…yet they still go down the stairs! :slight_smile:

I’m getting my popcorn ready:-)

Jeroen
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Hookless wheels have certainly made me faster.

(Everytime the thread comes up I have an urge to go out and do some training to get away from the discussion and go to my safe space).

How? And compared to what?

(Everytime the thread comes up I have an urge to go out and do some training to get away from the discussion and go to my safe space).

I honestly thought the post “Heart question: ST Depression on stress ECG” was that Slowtwitch was actually causing depression!!

To the OP - the reason for these responses, and the reason there were almost no “comments” to the front page article on Hookless, is because we have been discussing it to death here - “https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Some_more_spice_to_hooked_vs_hookless_debate._Tyre_blow-out._P7984864/?page=unread#unread

Bottom line, IMHO, I wouldn’t heavily invest into it until the UCI makes a decision. I’m sure they will be completely impartial and not be influenced by outside forces - just ask Obree.

I think your questions are well defined already.

What I would like to see is either an upfront objective “I’m a triathlete and my objective is to ride the fastest possible IM bike leg, with my current fitness”, which e.g. is not the same as “I’m a triathlete and my objective is to finish IM with the fastest time possible, with my current fitness”. The difference between the two would be the potential detrimental effect of vibration from the bike leg on the run leg.

Alternatively, provide an upfront caveat that you are aiming at achieving close-to-optimal setup. E.g. you’d be comparing 25mm tire on 20mm internal width vs 28mm tire on 23mm internal width. You don’t need to be specific as much, but by stressing “close-to-optimal for speed” assumption, you are eliminating setups far from ideal.

Personally, I’ve not jumped on the hookless train yet. I’m a big fan of DT Swiss and Swissside wheels and they’ve deliberately decided to refrain from hookless design. And I’m not talking what you see on the market, but their current R&D pipeline.

I think your questions are well defined already.

What I would like to see is either an upfront objective “I’m a triathlete and my objective is to ride the fastest possible IM bike leg, with my current fitness”, which e.g. is not the same as “I’m a triathlete and my objective is to finish IM with the fastest time possible, with my current fitness”. The difference between the two would be the potential detrimental effect of vibration from the bike leg on the run leg.

Alternatively, provide an upfront caveat that you are aiming at achieving close-to-optimal setup. E.g. you’d be comparing 25mm tire on 20mm internal width vs 28mm tire on 23mm internal width. You don’t need to be specific as much, but by stressing “close-to-optimal for speed” assumption, you are eliminating setups far from ideal.

Personally, I’ve not jumped on the hookless train yet. I’m a big fan of DT Swiss and Swissside wheels and they’ve deliberately decided to refrain from hookless design. And I’m not talking what you see on the market, but their current R&D pipeline.

Agreed. JP Ballard said he’d never do a hookless wheelset and between his comments and Josh, I’m all in on hooked. That said, I don’t see a benefit for ME for tubeless as the facts just don’t back it up. I nerd out a lot on these issues and no one has ever shown hookless to be faster, easier, more efficient or any positives other than production cost for the manufacturer.

I don’t see a benefit for ME for tubeless as the facts just don’t back it up. I nerd out a lot on these issues and no one has ever shown hookless to be faster, easier, more efficient or any positives other than production cost for the manufacturer.

Did you mean hooklesss for the former? Otherwise I’m engaging my #tubelessmafia mode to proselytize on you all the Good News about road tubeless.

I don’t see a benefit for ME for tubeless as the facts just don’t back it up. I nerd out a lot on these issues and no one has ever shown hookless to be faster, easier, more efficient or any positives other than production cost for the manufacturer.

Did you mean hooklesss for the former? Otherwise I’m engaging my #tubelessmafia mode to proselytize on you all the Good News about road tubeless.

Go ahead. I’m in for tubeless on ym gravel, bot not road for me. I work in a shop and have to deal with all of those problems and honestly it’s NOT faster.

Anyone else yearn for the era of the clinchers vs tub discussions.

Anyone else yearn for the era of the clinchers vs tub discussions.

LOL! I’m not THAT much of a neanderthal… Been there, done that don’t miss it at all…

I don’t think anyone will argue tubeless is faster for road. Theres obviously been countless data that shows latex tube vs tubeless is the same speed wise. I guess the only scenario I could think of where tubeless would be faster is if you wanted to run 28 mm tires on a wide rim so optimized pressure would be relatively low for a typical road. Not sure I would be comfortable running tubes on such a low pressure so one might run higher pressures because of the tube which may not necessarily be the most optimized setup for a given road.

I resisted tubeless for a while and was perfectly fine with tubes. I ran latex for everything including training. I will say it is nice to have some level of comfort that any small punctures are going to get sealed and wont force me to be on the side of the road changing a tube out. It is a little more work upfront but once you find a tlr wheelset and tire setup that mounts easily, it’s not that difficult. So for me, the only thing I feel like I gain with tubeless is puncture resistance. But there’s absolutely nothing wrong with tubes if that’s your thing.

Agree with you on much of this. But I run latex and am thus as fast, and (know on wood) no flats for 3 years. I also have no wheels that are super wide as my bikes are not optimized that way and I have no issues with 25s. They are fast on my existing wheels and I’m happy with what I have. That said, “comfort” that is a number one comment 28 and bigger claim is so individual; I have no qualms as to what I ride and don’t feel uncomfortable. Similar to running shoes and saddles, everyone’s “comfort” level is different. I tend to prefer aero to comfort at this point win my riding.

Hookless wheels have certainly made me faster.

Can you elaborate? I’m searching for a benefit of hookless wheels on a road bike, and the only two I can find are:

  1. Lighter (or stronger for the same weight) - seems to be pretty marginal though
  2. Cheaper (in theory at least, not getting in to whether that is actually passed to the consumer or not

There are clearly benefits to going with wider tyres (even more so on bumpy NZ roads), possibly with tubeless, but neither affect whether we have hookless or not. There are undeniably down sides to hookless on the road so what upsides have I missed?

I should add, I’m not trying to be awkward, I have no opinion, but I’ve been through the hookless thread and the two above are the only advantages I can find. I should also add that on my MTB I have been running hookless wheels for years - I’m talking road use here.

I don’t see any noticeable performance benefit over hooked. I don’t understand why people keep considering them? All I see is that it’s cheaper to produce and really limits the consumer. If we stop buying them, SRAM and Giant will be forced to revert back. Hookless, no matter how rare, have safety issues. Hooked, do not. If you love your wife, buy her some dt Swiss or Swiss-sides as someone else posted and have one less thing to worry about as she’s flying down a hill and bouncing over rough roads. Having hooked rims was the deciding factor for me when choosing the spec level of my latest bike.

We’re not driving cars. We don’t have steel in our tires and the tolerances cannot be as tight as they are on cars. We put our 2mm thick tires on with our thumbs…. Give me all the hooks!!

I don’t see any noticeable performance benefit over hooked. I don’t understand why people keep considering them? All I see is that it’s cheaper to produce and really limits the consumer. If we stop buying them, SRAM and Giant will be forced to revert back. Hookless, no matter how rare, have safety issues. Hooked, do not. If you love your wife, buy her some dt Swiss or Swiss-sides as someone else posted and have one less thing to worry about as she’s flying down a hill and bouncing over rough roads. Having hooked rims was the deciding factor for me when choosing the spec level of my latest bike.

We’re not driving cars. We don’t have steel in our tires and the tolerances cannot be as tight as they are on cars. We put our 2mm thick tires on with our thumbs…. Give me all the hooks!!

^^^^ This for sure.

I think the zipp303fc is the best wheel I’ve ridden … for all surfaces and somewhat hilly road / gravel races … and it only comes in
Hookless. Therefore, I have converted to hookless

I have no bias towards or again hooks. I just want a fast wheel, that I can run at low(ish) pressure for comfort on training rides and then pump up higher for maximum speed when I race

It is amazing to train long rides on chipseal @ 30psi and 38 slicks, so tubes are out for me. Hoooked vs hookless is completely irrelevant to me

When we debate rim vs disc brake, there are notable performance (or at least feelings) between the two that everyone could talk to and both have some amount of pros / cons

Hooked vs hookless feels like an argument just for engineers. As a consumer, I just don’t care

Hookless wheels have certainly made me faster.

(Everytime the thread comes up I have an urge to go out and do some training to get away from the discussion and go to my safe space).

Can you elaborate? I’m searching for a benefit of hookless wheels on a road bike, and the only two I can find are:

  1. Lighter (or stronger for the same weight) - seems to be pretty marginal though
  2. Cheaper (in theory at least, not getting in to whether that is actually passed to the consumer or not

There are clearly benefits to going with wider tyres (even more so on bumpy NZ roads), possibly with tubeless, but neither affect whether we have hookless or not. There are undeniably down sides to hookless on the road so what upsides have I missed?

I should add, I’m not trying to be awkward, I have no opinion, but I’ve been through the hookless thread and the two above are the only advantages I can find. I should also add that on my MTB I have been running hookless wheels for years - I’m talking road use here.

Full Quote added, which I apologise I’d forgotten the international nature of the board meant I needed to signpost my sarcasm a bit more. The point I was (badly) making in run of fairly similarly unhelpful replies to the OP is that to escape the depression and stress of the hookless debate I go out and do some training which is where indirectly the speed benefits are being delivered.

Again, to be clear I mean no offence in the reply above to anyone on any side of the debate, those that have English as a first or second language (my native tongue is Yorkshire, English as a second language).

Right, I’m off to flick my livestrong wristband 100 times as penance, and let you get back to the serious and worthwhile discussion.