I am an older age grouper with a lot of racing experience.On and off for the past two years (75% of the time) I have been running in Hoka Bondi B’s due to persistent Achilles problems. The Hoka’s have helped my Achilles which seems fine - at least for now. Over the past year I had a number of hamstring pulls - primarily when increasing intensity. Just recently I went back to my old running shoes and the hamstring problem cleared up. I am beginning to think the hamstring pulls and the Hokas are related as the Hoka’s change my foot plant from a forefoot plant to a midfoot plant. Has anyone else experienced this?
Thanks
I have seen the same question asked about Newtons. Is there a PT or exercise physiologist who can explain how a running shoe can cause hamstring problems?
I have been suffering for more then 2 years but not a Hoka user. Just curious if someone has a theory.
Although I didn’t experience hamstring issues, I did encounter some rather painful left quad problems when running in Hoka’s (Cliftons). I am a lifelong runner and an older AG’er (57yo). As soon as I parked the Hoka’s, the issue cleared up. I vowed never to run in them again. It would be nice to hear from the PT’s and physiologist’s on this forum.
I’m not a PT but I was recently in PT for a right calf issue with run IM training. My issue was recurrent pain. MRI, nerve testing, X-ray, clot testing, gait analysis, compartment syndrome…everything great.
PT did a full analysis and noticed my left big toe pointed up slightly. He speculated that since my body was not getting proper feedback from my left big toe hitting the ground, it was causing my left side to not fire properly. Therefore, I was loading up my right side too much and my right calf was taking the brunt of my running impact. We did weeks of exercises to teach my big toe to tell my body I had a left side.
So, yeah, I can see if a shoe changes the way your body distributes running impact, you could have issues.
I run a lot of hills and had/have a lot of problems running in Hokas. Right when I first started tri training I thought they were the best thing ever because they helped with my shin splints. Really all I did was trade that for myriad problems with my Achilles, calves, and hamstrings. Like I said, especially on hills. I have since worked on my form, gone to a minimalist stride, and ditched the hokas. Much better results. I’ll have (3) pairs for sale really soon on here. Men’s 10. (shameless plug haha)
In my humble opinion, there are many misconceptions about the role running shoes play in preventing and/or causing injuries. Running shoes are simply tools that we all use to run and stress our bodies sufficiently to get a desired physiological response. If you look at it this way, it’s easier to understand how the misconceptions get started. If the Hoka shoes do not mesh well with your gait and mechanics then it’s possible that they could provoke a soreness or injury. But most people appreciate the increased cushioning they provide and are able to run more. On the other hand, if you can run longer in minimalist shoes then that would be the correct tool for you.
Hamstring and calf strains or pulls are caused by running too hard (fast) for your level of conditioning. I’ve done this many times and it has become progressively more common as I get older. But I doubt my shoes are to blame. I suppose a soft shoe could contribute in the sense that softer shoes absorb more energy and you need to work harder to overcome this if you want to run the same splits. Most runners I know use Hokas for longer training runs but not for hard speed work because they are too squishy. Although you do see many fast age groupers racing in them. I did this until my heel pain resolved.
There are a few ways a running shoe could contribute to hamstring- in the OP’s situation and others, when you move to a shoe with less heel/toe drop, you’re increasing mechanically the lever arm, significantly altering the midstance to latestance force development (when the foot transitions from under the body toward toe-off), degree to which hip/knee/foot extension is emphasized prior to toe-off, and potentially altering how initial impact force at foot contact is absorbed/emphasized by a particular muscle group.
For some, it can manifest in the lower leg…for others, hamstring. Many variables for this.
In theory Newtons have a purpose- in practice many hit behind the lug, creating a “negative drop” biomechanically (wear patterns on the lug don’t always tell the entire story). For Hoka’s, it’s not as significant due to the continuous rocker design and slightly higher heel-toe drop than the Newton’s.
Believe me, my story is completely anecdotal. I don’t know if the Hoka’s had anything to do with my problems. I do know I could not figure out how to midfoot strike correctly until I got away from them. That was the biggest change for me.
You say anecdotal, I say doesn’t surprise me at all.
Shoes can assist with proprioception, but no shoe will be the be-all-end-all. Hoka’s serve a place just as much as a pair of Merrell trail gloves (or any other shoe). If people alter their run mechanics, they are just as likely to do it in a high heel-toe drop shoe like a Mizuno as they are an Altra, if their approach to changing mechanics is sound.
Once people account for the shoe being able to absorb initial impact (either from the shoe or from the run mechanics), and make sure the rear foot or midfoot shoe structure doesn’t create too much or too little pronation (once again, either from the shoe or from from the run mechanics), the rest is comfort and getting in the mileage.
“I do know I could not figure out how to midfoot strike correctly until I got away from them.”
this makes no sense to me.
For the way you’re talking about hamstring problems I’m guessing they’re quite mild and more agrivation rather than a bad pull?
I’m my experience, minor hamstring, calf and achilles issues/tightness is after caused by something quite simple and easy to fix which caused by our modern desk/seated lifestyle, or in the case of triathletes hours sat on a bike! Namely Ttght hips/glute area. The leg muscles nerve supply has to travel through your bum and if there’s pressure on it, caused by tightness the signal isn’t going to work properly!
It’s so simple to fix and doesn’t cost anything apart from a small amount of time! There’s a really good stretch using a bench/table which will free up your hips/glutes and allow the nerve system to supply the muscles properly! I’ll look up a YouTube video of it and post it for you!
It’s the one stretch I do everyday now without fail, and this is mainly because I can immediately feel the difference it makes to the way my legs work afterwards!
Try it and see if it works for you!
I don’t know Dan. Like I said, purely anecdotal. I’ve only been doing tri like 2 years and don’t have a bunch of smart people to train with or a coach… I just know it clicked for me when I switched shoes. Perhaps I could rotate the Hokas back in and get the best of both worlds? I have tried running in them 2x in the last couple weeks with not good results… But open to other input.
Edit: I’m gonna leave this alone now as I feel like I’ve thread jacked the OP. Good insight here though.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh3gioc_x4I
This isn’t the one I was looking for but its A good start!
I tend to start from this position and then move my leg on the table forwards and to the sides and shift my body weight over the leg to really feel the stretch.
You have to hold the stretch for a few minutes on each leg as these muscles are strong and take a long time to allow themselves to relax into the stetch! I’ll try and find the other video when I’m on my laptop! Mobiles and internet searching doesn’t work well!!!
i only bring this up because low- or no-ramp shoes are typically the cure for those who’re looking to midfoot strike.
i only bring this up because low- or no-ramp shoes are typically the cure for those who’re looking to midfoot strike.
Hi Dan. Although Hokas are 4mm ramp from heel to ball of foot, from ball of foot to big toe off, there is an unnaturally massive ramp. What this allows the athlete to do is toe off without actually bending at the ball of foot, in others words a “stiff toe push off”. There are some negative implication to them from the first metatarsel head back through the ankle/tarsel tunnel, all the way up the leg. It’s not totally right to run with a stiff big toe. I understand that you can still “bend it” but not to the same degee as other shoes where you might also have a better feedback from the big toe, back up the chain, through the hamstrings and glutes. Since the plantar nerve going back from the toes feed back up the chain up the tibial nerve and sciatic nerve, it can see how two things can happen.
You may actually have difficulty mid foot striking and the natural roll/push off from that because you lack feedback from the toes with a hard contact to the ground. Secondly this altered gait, that one may think they have adjusted to (but it is hard to unlearn all the running people do in a lifetime) may affect activation of the hamstrings, since they are also innervated by the same chain, namely the sciatic nerve.
One of the posters above mentioned his body basically forgetting that one side of his body is there, because Hokas caused him to run without actively using the big toe. I can see the mechanics of how that might come into play.
i can’t stipulate to a number of things you’re asserting here. i don’t mean to defend the construction of the shoe, but this ought to enhance not detract from midfoot plant. the idea of recognizing where the fulcrum in a running shoe is in a running shoe, and engineering your shoe with this knowledge in mind, is in a number of popular shoes. if you don’t like this in a hoka you must hate it in a newton. every shoe has a fulcrum, the only question is whether the shoe designer recognizes it, and takes this into account.
second, i’d rather not call it a ramp because in my parlance a ramp means something, so let’s figure out a way to talk about this using another term.
finally, the stiff toe push-off, i don’t see or feel any of that. i don’t know where you came up with that. i look at the fulcrum of a running shoe the way i’d look at how i make the arms in a wetsuit. i can either not do anything to make it easier for you to recover and bring your arm back to the point of the catch, or i can make it easier, saving your shoulders a lot of work. if you feel it’s more natural for your shoulders to do that work, fine, i’ll make you that wetsuit. but i would think the “unnatural” method of making it easier for you to perform the work would be better.
I am an older age grouper with a lot of racing experience.On and off for the past two years (75% of the time) I have been running in Hoka Bondi B’s due to persistent Achilles problems. The Hoka’s have helped my Achilles which seems fine - at least for now. Over the past year I had a number of hamstring pulls - primarily when increasing intensity. Just recently I went back to my old running shoes and the hamstring problem cleared up. I am beginning to think the hamstring pulls and the Hokas are related as the Hoka’s change my foot plant from a forefoot plant to a midfoot plant. Has anyone else experienced this?
Thanks
Without seeing a video of your running gait at the pace you get injured at, and with similar fatigue levels, it’s hard to draw any conclusions.
My best guess, is that as you increase speed, you are not increasing cadence and lengthing your stride too much, overstriding by reaching out with you foot, not by driving forward harder. As a result, your using your hamstring as a prime mover, rather than a stabilizing muscle or for high heel recovery necessary for high cadence and good economy.
You’ve also probably fallen into a trap where you are doing too much speed, with too much fatigue. Injury risk become exponential in that scenerio. You have to dial back volume and bike intensity when you ramp up running intensity. You can do all of them at once.
Just a broad assumption on the issues at play. I could be way off base.
I will say, the generally, a heavy Hoka Bondi, is a good shoe for high mileage, and a very poor shoe for higher speeds. Would you take a big block pushrod engine with a heavy flywheel tuned for towing and low RPM torque… and try and get top end out of it? OR take a smaller over square inline 6 that revs high and add a turbocharger? The 2nd may have higher risk due to higher effective compression ratios, but it will make a LOT more top end and flying apart won’t be an issue.
2 examples
- Woman in a Hoka says her big toe goes numb. “What happens when you take the shoes off?” Numbness goes away. I put her in a similar shoe with more ramp I mean drop and a defined flex point. No numbness. Her big toe was not engaged and it went numb.
- Woman complaining of calf issues. Was there a time when your calf did not hurt. Yes when I wore the Clfton. Was it comfortable? Yes, but xx running stores says I should be in stability. Are those comfortable? No she says. She was so happy when I told her to run in Hoka.
In both instances the runner was over thinking things.
- Is the shoe comfortable if yes stay if no go.
- Do I have “pain” not caused by a change in my running. If yes go to a different shoe if no stay with what’s comfortable.
i can’t stipulate to a number of things you’re asserting here. i don’t mean to defend the construction of the shoe, but this ought to enhance not detract from midfoot plant. the idea of recognizing where the fulcrum in a running shoe is in a running shoe, and engineering your shoe with this knowledge in mind, is in a number of popular shoes. if you don’t like this in a hoka you must hate it in a newton. every shoe has a fulcrum, the only question is whether the shoe designer recognizes it, and takes this into account.
second, i’d rather not call it a ramp because in my parlance a ramp means something, so let’s figure out a way to talk about this using another term.
finally, the stiff toe push-off, i don’t see or feel any of that. i don’t know where you came up with that. i look at the fulcrum of a running shoe the way i’d look at how i make the arms in a wetsuit. i can either not do anything to make it easier for you to recover and bring your arm back to the point of the catch, or i can make it easier, saving your shoulders a lot of work. if you feel it’s more natural for your shoulders to do that work, fine, i’ll make you that wetsuit. but i would think the “unnatural” method of making it easier for you to perform the work would be better.
Dan, perhaps the larger question is “does a running shoe” require a fulcrum point. Let’s take a soccer cleat or track spike with zero ramp. The fulcrum point is the athlete’s natural ball of foot. My thought is “would the Hoka actually work better of the sole was the same thickness right to the toe?”. This is the case of most altras, but not all. Or would the thickness of the sole limit the ‘bend’ at the ball of foot. believe the latter is the case, which is likely why the Altra Paradigm does have the “fall off” from ball of foot to toe off.
I think we can agree that if the toes are inactive, then the arch of the athlete is not used actievly either. Our arches are there for a specific shock aborption reason and also ingeniously designed for the push off phase. If usage of a Hoka style shoe allows one to get lazy in that entire chain then it stands to reason that everything up from there could be negatively affected due to timing and how the nerves are firing the muscles (or not).
Don’t get me wrong, when I get back to running, I intend to have my hokas in the rotation, but I do believe that they allow you to run with a lazy foot/lower limb complex. I think over the long run, that’s not a great thing if every run is in this type of shoe…having said that, if this type of shoe allows us to run vs not run at all, then by all means. It’s just like me water running right now…better that than nothing at all.
Thanks. I know I have tight glutes and a tight lower back -even though i stretch often and use a roller- so I’ll give it a try.