Hoka Bondi 3 = Sinking Into Grass/Turf Surface Feeling

[devashish_paul]

I have been playing around with many running shoe types largely 4 mm drop: Brooks Pure Connect, Merrill Bare Access, Newton Distance (old and new models), On Cloud Racer, Newton Energy, Altra Instinct, Altra Paradigm (thick padded shoe zero drop), vibrams on grass etc etc.

I grew up in track spikes where you are “on top of the surface” and also wearing soccer cleats, where you sink into the grass surface. As an adult I love running with vibrams on soft grassy surfaces, because your foot sinks slightly into the grass and the grass surface/dirt becomes like an orthotic around your foot with every stride, unlike a track spike where you are “on top” with no “cradling feeling”. Most of the shoes mentioned above leaves you partially in between that feeling of “running on top” of the track and running with your foot sinking into the grass.

I tried some Hoka Bondi 3 and was trying to figure out how best to describe what the “ride” felt like, and this is the best analogy I could come up with…it’s like running with Vibrams on grass in that your foot is cradled inside the surface that you land on, but instead you’re wearing that grass surface on your feet. I know I am “late to the party” but I could not get a really good description from anyone on how they would feel before I ran with them. The closest description I got from anyone on how they would feel is from Slowman’s various descriptions. Surprisingly they “felt fast” on my feet, and I went to my local 1K test loop to run a 4 min kilometer and was pleasantly surprised, that they did not feel like the bricks that they look like. This is nothing new to you guys that swear by them. My only issue was the arches seem to be slightly more elevated than I would like, so interested if any of the other models have a less high arch.

[logella]

Welcome to 2012.

[slow123]

.

[devashish_paul]

Thanks for the update…but I think even 2012 is late…maybe 2010 is the right date…but you never really gave a good description, other than than “they are becoming my primary shoe”. I heard people describe it as soft or squishy, or forgiving, but as a life long runner to date only slowman managed to give a decent explanation of the feeling. Maybe he is just better at describing things than the most users. Most users just say, “I feel awesome” but don’t really capture what it feels like. It seems like later in long runs when your stablizer muscles are tired, then having this additional degree out “outside” support would reduce oxygen consumption/fatigue over a more “tippy shoe”. The Altra paradigm also had a very similar level of “outside assistance” related to balance/staying stable, but was much more firm and frankly I found them much more firm than a Newton distance, kind of defeating the point of the thick sole (other than the support). I actually did not find the Bondi much softer than the Newton distance (I’d say they are similar at my weight, maybe for bigger runners the Newton compresses more and the Bondi gives them more available compression that I don’t need). The main difference at my weight was the support.

[logella]

Let’s split the difference. Looks like Dan’s first article on the Bondi was in 2011. I got on the Hoka train in 2012 though

[Sweeney]

Been running on Stensins since 2011 my first impression that still lasts is that all my runs are like I’m running on a pine needle covered trail.

Funny thing, I feel the cush much more walking than running.

[Sweeney]

Whoops, it was 2012. I wore my old NB shoes when I first started running after my hip surgeries. i got the Hoka’s and it was like I got my old legs back.

They are never like those old dead NB maximum cushioned trainers. For me they always feel fast (fast is relative at my age) and you can’t kill these shoes. When the insole gets beat down, they will send you new ones adn it’s like you have a new pair of shoes!

[sp1ke]

How did you like the cushioned Altras compared to the Hokas? I got a pair of Cliftons and was pleasantly surprised just like you but after a few runs they started to rub my feet especially the achiles and the peroneal area. I wore them with a pair of low cut socks and I got some pretty deep wounds over the course of 3mi The upper just seems so stiff and tall and I’m not sure I’ll be able to get used to them - planning to send them back. I had no issues running in Newtons (gravity and distance) for 3 years and Altra Torins.

[monty]

SO all this time you just thought that dan, i and the 100’s of others were just hyping them out of some secret motive? I went camping recently with my good friend Tim Sheeper, and he had just come off a stellar year crushing the 50+ crowd. But when he went for a jog i noticed a limp in his stride and asked him what was up. He said he did over 20+ marathons last year, some stand alone, some in triathlons, some just workouts. He was basically hobbled. I lent him my too small for him Hokas and told him to just go for a run in what he called my clown shoes. He came back with a puzzled look and said be might give them a go.

Talked to him last week and he said it is all he runs in, and at least 50 of his athletes are now running in them. I guess in some way i do have a secret motive, i want my friends to be able to run without pain, and i do own a ton of deckers stock. So glad you finally made it to the party, with you on board i think i will buy some more stock today!!! (-;

[logella]

but you never really gave a good description, other than than “they are becoming my primary shoe”. I heard people describe it as soft or squishy, or forgiving, but as a life long runner to date only slowman managed to give a decent explanation of the feeling.

That comment right there probably best describes why you do what you do for a living and I do what I do for a living. Your much more technically oriented while I’m more liberal arts based. With your tech/engineering background you needed more specifics to get past the decision point whereas I got to the decision point with less objective data. Not that there’s anything wrong with either approach but I do think it’s interesting.

[devashish_paul]

SO all this time you just thought that dan, i and the 100’s of others were just hyping them out of some secret motive? I went camping recently with my good friend Tim Sheeper, and he had just come off a stellar year crushing the 50+ crowd. But when he went for a jog i noticed a limp in his stride and asked him what was up. He said he did over 20+ marathons last year, some stand alone, some in triathlons, some just workouts. He was basically hobbled. I lent him my too small for him Hokas and told him to just go for a run in what he called my clown shoes. He came back with a puzzled look and said be might give them a go.

Talked to him last week and he said it is all he runs in, and at least 50 of his athletes are now running in them. I guess in some way i do have a secret motive, i want my friends to be able to run without pain, and i do own a ton of deckers stock. So glad you finally made it to the party, with you on board i think i will buy some more stock today!!! (-;

Hi Monty, I never quite felt a need to try the Hokas in that my other shoes are relatively well cushioned for my 136-144 lbs body (depends on time of year). But I have a bad left knee from my crash in 2011 and I have 5 min of knee pain starting every run if I start without a bike “warmup”. NIce thing I noticed that I was not ‘bracing’ myself for those first 5 minutes, much like perhaps what you noticed on Sheeper.

Logella, I hear your point, but it was not really a case of being convinced, as there are enough success stories out there that these are a no brainer if they work for your foot type.

To the person asking about the padded Altras, I tried the Paradigm…similar feel to the Hokas but firmer. I THINK that is you are a larger runner, they will be perfect. For the smaller runner, perhaps there is not enough landing force to properly “sink in”. Toe box for the Paradigm is wider which is why I first tried the Altras rather than the Hokas 6 months ago. They are also zero drop versus 4 mm which is why I went to the Paradigms in the first place (I really like zero drop)…but 4mm is close enough.

As I mentioned I actually found the Newton Distance to have more padding for my weight than the Paradigm or the Bondi but the Paradigm has more support and the Bondi slightly more.

One more interesting thing I noticed. I ran to the gym and did my weight circuit which includes some plyometrics. It was funny, but it SEEMED like my vertical displacement on the plyos was lower with the Bondis vs Altra Instinct that is a very firm shoe. Maybe it is in my head, but I THINK that the foam compresses and takes away what would be stored in my legs for the rebound. Not really material even if this is reality and not in my head for shuffling around at my half and full IM race paces, but for the same reason why sprinters like hard tracks, maybe one’s 400m or 1600m time MAY be slower, but who cares, that’s not what these are for, even if it was in my head.

[craigj532]

How did you like the cushioned Altras compared to the Hokas? I got a pair of Cliftons and was pleasantly surprised just like you but after a few runs they started to rub my feet especially the achiles and the peroneal area. I wore them with a pair of low cut socks and I got some pretty deep wounds over the course of 3mi The upper just seems so stiff and tall and I’m not sure I’ll be able to get used to them - planning to send them back. I had no issues running in Newtons (gravity and distance) for 3 years and Altra Torins.

My unsolicited two cents - the Paradigm is much stiffer than the Hoka Clifton. The Olympus is much more of a match to the Clifton as far as “feel” goes. The Olympus, however, is super heavy - probably unnecessarily so. It must weigh a good 4 ounces more than the Clifton. I found that there are many areas of the Olympus that seem built up with no discernible purpose. I love the Olympus on the trails, but they just feel too heavy to me on the roads. The Paradigm also gave me wicked blisters on my toes and forefoot that I’ve never gotten running in any other shoes. I don’t think that the upper in either the Paradigm or the Olympus is any less stiff or tall than the upper in the Clifton.

You might want to try the Hoka Huaka, which has a different upper than the Clifton, but bear in mind that it also has a much stiffer feel compared to the Clifton, too.

[devashish_paul]

How did you like the cushioned Altras compared to the Hokas? I got a pair of Cliftons and was pleasantly surprised just like you but after a few runs they started to rub my feet especially the achiles and the peroneal area. I wore them with a pair of low cut socks and I got some pretty deep wounds over the course of 3mi The upper just seems so stiff and tall and I’m not sure I’ll be able to get used to them - planning to send them back. I had no issues running in Newtons (gravity and distance) for 3 years and Altra Torins.

My unsolicited two cents - the Paradigm is much stiffer than the Hoka Clifton. The Olympus is much more of a match to the Clifton as far as “feel” goes. The Olympus, however, is super heavy - probably unnecessarily so. It must weigh a good 4 ounces more than the Clifton. I found that there are many areas of the Olympus that seem built up with no discernible purpose. I love the Olympus on the trails, but they just feel too heavy to me on the roads. The Paradigm also gave me wicked blisters on my toes and forefoot that I’ve never gotten running in any other shoes. I don’t think that the upper in either the Paradigm or the Olympus is any less stiff or tall than the upper in the Clifton.

You might want to try the Hoka Huaka, which has a different upper than the Clifton, but bear in mind that it also has a much stiffer feel compared to the Clifton, too.

Related to this the Paradigm size 10 fits more like Hoka Bondi size 9.5 (or even 9). I got a black toenail doing hill repeats in the Paradigm on a cold day (minus 14C) when I was losing some feeling in my toe cause it was getting cold and the thicker sock was leaving me less space to the upper. If I was to buy another pair (and I likely will at some point), I would get size 10.5…right now I have like 9 different pairs of running shoes in my rotation so it would literally take me 4-5 years to really NEED more shoes…but that never stopped me before!

[IT]

Many locals rave about the Hokas yet does the tread and the cushioning stay “new”. How long does the cushioning last? How long will the tread last if I’m quick to add shoe goo to prolong tread life?

On the roads I use a Nike Pegasus full air sole that is firm and cushioned and the air soles don’t flatten out for me. The tread wear is excellent and shoe goo adheres well. For the treadmill or cross country running, I use a Nike without the air sole and the tread wear is good too.

My favorite racing shoe was the Nike Mariah as I could run downhill with impunity. If a Hoka is like that, I could be all in for using it as a race shoe. I like light and cushioned yet I’m used to getting years out of a shoe, even the Mariahs. Thank you in advance for answers on how the cushioning lasts and how the Hoka tread wears.

[logella]

Many locals rave about the Hokas yet does the tread and the cushioning stay “new”. How long does the cushioning last? How long will the tread last if I’m quick to add shoe goo to prolong tread life?

I’m averaging about 600-650 miles per pair of Hokas. I’ve run in Bondi (1), Bondi 2 (2), and Stinson Tarmac (1). I’m currently rotating a pair of Bondi 3 and Conquest. I’d really like to get a pair of Conquest but those shoes only have about 250 miles each right now. I still run in the Tarmac’s occasionally as they are in my gym bag that I take to the office and I use them on the treadmill there.

[devashish_paul]

So for today’s run commute to the pool I wore my Newton Distance. At my weight the Newton is “more cushy” than the Bondi3. I would assume a larger runner might flatten out the Newton and get less effective padding, whereas a bigger runner could compress the Bondi3 sole more before “bottoming” out.

The main difference I see at my weight is that the Newton is more like a track spike in the sense that you are running on top of the surface with less support for the foot and the entire chain upwards. The Bondi3 provides a ton more stability with the “sink into the grass” effect.

One thing interesting, yesterday in the weight room I also did several of my weight exercises that are done balancing on a single leg at a time. With the Bondi3, I felt like my foot was planted in concrete nicely “sunken in” and supported with a wide platform. When I do so in the Newton, it’s like I am (relatively) on a balance beam, especially the old 4 lug model.

At my weight the perfect sole would be a Hoka that is 1 cm thinner but comes up around the side of your foot with 5 Newton lugs on the bottom. This would be the ultimate in padding with additional stability. My assumption is that the Clifton is part way to that. My 2 cents from a lighter runner. I can see for the heavier runner why everyone raves about the Hoka cushioning, but for lightweight runners, there are other shoes on the market with effectively the same cushioning (cause the light runner does not fully utilize all the cushioning that he/she is carrying around). All this to say, I THINK that lighter weight runners are largely feeling Hoka “support” and don’t really get the full utility from the padding due to lack of weight. If I recall correctly Nike Air used different PSI in the men’s and women’s models for this reason. PSI in the women’s model was lower to account for less weight.

[devashish_paul]

OK, more to add to this. As part of an 80 min run today, I did 2x21 min @ ~7 min mile pace (each 21 min loop is 3x~1 mile…it is just a few meters short of a mile and has an uphill and downhill). 3 loops with the Bondi and 3 loops with the Altra Paradigm. I tried as close as possible to keep both of the 21 min sections at the same effort.

Here are my observations:

Bondi feels more “sunken in and supported” than the ParadigmParadigm is firmer for sure and literally feels like a racing flat after removing the BondiPerceived exertion for the Bondi at the same pace seems to be lower…don’t know why other than there is more support, so your stabilizers have to do less workI could barely notice any difference in the 4mm delta in drop between the shoesBondi had less shock/pounding going downhill which is what I expected given the Paradigm’s stiffer sole
These are the two shoes for those who don’t know what the Altra shoe looks like. You can also see that the taper/toe off/rocker (call it what you want) of the Altra is more abrupt than the front end of the Bondi.

[EnderWiggan]

Hi Dev,

We have very similar profiles, 135-140lbs, and I have been moving back and forth between the Altra Torin 1.5/Paradigm/Bondi for awhile.

I feel like the extra toe room in the Altra, plus narrower heal provide a more stable platform, combined with the lower drop. I also feel like the Bondi perceived effort is lower, but my speed is slightly slower due to the mushiness of the Bondi sole (and resulting lost energy). Did you track your heart rate during the tests? Have you tried the Torin or One2? Given your weight is the Bondi worth it? Do you feel you need the extra support cradle the Bondi provides? Or is the Newton Distance good enough? The Newton toe box is just so narrow I don’t know how people run in them. Don’t you feel like your toes are cramped?

OK, more to add to this. As part of an 80 min run today, I did 2x21 min @ ~7 min mile pace (each 21 min loop is 3x~1 mile…it is just a few meters short of a mile and has an uphill and downhill). 3 loops with the Bondi and 3 loops with the Altra Paradigm. I tried as close as possible to keep both of the 21 min sections at the same effort.

Here are my observations:

Bondi feels more “sunken in and supported” than the ParadigmParadigm is firmer for sure and literally feels like a racing flat after removing the BondiPerceived exertion for the Bondi at the same pace seems to be lower…don’t know why other than there is more support, so your stabilizers have to do less workI could barely notice any difference in the 4mm delta in drop between the shoesBondi had less shock/pounding going downhill which is what I expected given the Paradigm’s stiffer sole

[craigj532]

Have you tried the Hoka Clifton? I weigh around 145 lbs, and I find that the cushioned “feel” of the Clifton is almost exactly the same as the Bondi for me at that weight. The slightly lower stack height and much lower weight, however, makes them feel much faster and more stable on the foot. The ride on them feels very similar to Newtons to me. The major difference is that in long runs in Newtons, the shoe starts to feel like it’s working against me a bit as the form starts to break down. I don’t find that to be the case with the Cliftons. To me, the Cliftons are the best shoe I’ve found for long, quicker runs where you want to have relatively fresh legs the next day. The Clifton seems to have solved many of the issues that I had with other Hokas. I’m hoping that the update with the thicker tongue will make them the perfect high-mileage marathon training and racing shoe for middle-aged men with bad backs.

Of course, now I’m just encouraging you to buy more shoes.

[devashish_paul]

Have you tried the Hoka Clifton? I weigh around 145 lbs, and I find that the cushioned “feel” of the Clifton is almost exactly the same as the Bondi for me at that weight. The slightly lower stack height and much lower weight, however, makes them feel much faster and more stable on the foot. The ride on them feels very similar to Newtons to me. The major difference is that in long runs in Newtons, the shoe starts to feel like it’s working against me a bit as the form starts to break down. I don’t find that to be the case with the Cliftons. To me, the Cliftons are the best shoe I’ve found for long, quicker runs where you want to have relatively fresh legs the next day. The Clifton seems to have solved many of the issues that I had with other Hokas. I’m hoping that the update with the thicker tongue will make them the perfect high-mileage marathon training and racing shoe for middle-aged men with bad backs.

Of course, now I’m just encouraging you to buy more shoes.

LOL…as my family will attest to, the stock pile of shoes in the basement is starting to rival runningwarehouse.com…so you don’t need to take any blame for encouraging me. My thought on what you are saying on Cliftons vs Newtons is that the Clifton likely has the orthotic/sunk into the grass feeling with support on all sides, whereas the Newton as I mentioned has the “running on top of he track with spikes” feeling…meaning that later in a run, the added energy spent balancing and keeping upright adds up to the breakdown in the form/posture of the runner, whereas in the Clifton where you are “held up” somewhat by the shoe, you don’t have that…this is my hunch and once I get the Cliftons I’ll report back. Today I did an 81K outdoor ride (never biked on a road bike outdoors here in Ottawa Canada where by now, we have 1-2 feet of snow), and 9K transition run in the Bondi’s. Part of it was hitting a 1K measured loop which I ran twice timed in 3:52 and 4:03. This is a fast pace for me. In the last quarter of each interval, I felt the shoes “felt heavy”, at those speeds…then again, the ride was pretty hard, so really hard to know. I think the best test would be to do 1K repeats swapping the various shoes. I think 400m repeats are too fast to be meaningful, whereas 1K repeats are slow enough to be closer to the range that I’d be racing anyway.