Highest Power Numbers Ever by a Professional Cyclist

From OutsideOnline:

https://velo.outsideonline.com/road/road-racing/tour-de-france/power-analysis-pogacars-power-numbers-are-the-highest-weve-ever-seen-in-professional-cycling/

“Based on the numbers, Tadej Pogačar has an FTP close to 7w/kg. These are the highest numbers that we’ve ever seen in professional cycling, and what’s even more incredible is that Pogačar is pushing 7w/kg for 40 minutes after four hours of racing. Plus, they’re racing in the heat, and it’s the third week of a Grand Tour. Fatigue doesn’t seem to affect Pogačar…”

The power numbers for the TT are likely at sea level, or close, but the mountain stages have to be corrected for sea level equivalent (from what I heard on a recent podcast, he was 6.8w/kg on Isla 2000 and that is equivalent to 7.18w/kg at sea level). Wasn’t Armstrong, and most other TdF winners content if they were producing 6.0w/kg?

From what I recall the magic number that Ferrari had for this riders in the late 90’s/early 2000’s on Col de Madone outside Monaco was 7W per kilo pre tour de France and that climb is not at altitude (Isola 2000…well it ends at 2000m and roughly started in Isola sub 900m if I recall the stage profile). Intially that was on the full EPO program when the likes of Rominger and crew were racing and later after Sydney 2000 when there was an EPO test, I guess it was EPO microdosing plus blood transfusions. All that is banned today for obvious reasons (EPO was already prohibited in early 2000’s and now there is no needles and blood passport etc).

And the bikes were already 6.8 kilos in early 2000’s (not that it makes a diff on a watts per kilo calculation, but it makes a diff on climb times if the bikes are heavier)…so what is left is aero bikes, less rolling resistance and aero suits on climb times. Does not change the watts per kilo story though. That’s independent of all the bike tech and clothing tech variables.

From what I recall the magic number that Ferrari had for this riders in the late 90’s/early 2000’s on Col de Madone outside Monaco was 7W per kilo pre tour de France and that climb is not at altitude (Isola 2000…well it ends at 2000m and roughly started in Isola sub 900m if I recall the stage profile). Intially that was on the full EPO program when the likes of Rominger and crew were racing and later after Sydney 2000 when there was an EPO test, I guess it was EPO microdosing plus blood transfusions. All that is banned today for obvious reasons (EPO was already prohibited in early 2000’s and now there is no needles and blood passport etc).

And the bikes were already 6.8 kilos in early 2000’s (not that it makes a diff on a watts per kilo calculation, but it makes a diff on climb times if the bikes are heavier)…so what is left is aero bikes, less rolling resistance and aero suits on climb times. Does not change the watts per kilo story though. That’s independent of all the bike tech and clothing tech variables.

It’s the technology… no wait the training is different… no wait it’s the nutrition.

Disc brakes have better modulation, thats gotta be worth a few watts
.

I don’t believe the goal, for Armstrong, was ever 7.0w/kg because I recall reading one of the many books about his TdF time and how he bragged about knowing he was fit enough for the Tour when he was able to push 450 watts for a particular time up a climb. He weighed 75kg (165 lbs) so that’s right at 6.0w/kg

It is somewhat mind blowing to think that the previous best cyclist we have ever seen, fully doped to the gills on probably one of the most sophisticated protocols in sport, had a fraction of the power of the current crop of cyclists.

I don’t believe the goal, for Armstrong, was ever 7.0w/kg because I recall reading one of the many books about his TdF time and how he bragged about knowing he was fit enough for the Tour when he was able to push 450 watts for a particular time up a climb. He weighed 75kg (165 lbs) so that’s right at 6.0w/kg

Check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvmG4HUMDos

All I can really say is that these numbers are only for professional cyclists. If you take triathletes into account, these numbers are paltry numbers.

I don’t believe the goal, for Armstrong, was ever 7.0w/kg because I recall reading one of the many books about his TdF time and how he bragged about knowing he was fit enough for the Tour when he was able to push 450 watts for a particular time up a climb. He weighed 75kg (165 lbs) so that’s right at 6.0w/kg

What is curious is whether long distance runners capacity has gone from 6W per kilos to 6.5W per kilo equivalent . If we use Rchung’s proxy from watts per kilo to meters per second it would suggest 8 percent improvement in speed (not exactly because wind resistance is meaningful at 6 m/s running speed, but even if we say 4% run speed improvements it would be worth checking the 10,000m world record progression

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10,000_metres#:~:text=The%20world%20record%20for%20men%20is%20held%20by,in%20Eugene%2C%20Oregon%2C%20on%2025%20May%202024.%20

From the top ten running all time 10,000m times 1 from the 2020’s and everything else from 1997 to the 200x.

So runners are not on the trajectory of cyclists which makes no sense. All these sports should eventually advance proportionally on the physiology gains side

I don’t believe the goal, for Armstrong, was ever 7.0w/kg because I recall reading one of the many books about his TdF time and how he bragged about knowing he was fit enough for the Tour when he was able to push 450 watts for a particular time up a climb. He weighed 75kg (165 lbs) so that’s right at 6.0w/kg

Check this out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvmG4HUMDos

He does mention 7.0W/KG towards the end of the video. It’s funny he mentions “bread and water” too as that was what the doped up riders would claim to be using (“pan y agua”)

This is an interesting article from 2020:

https://jralong.com/2020/09/21/we-wont-get-fooled-again/

An excerpt from the link:

Here’s an explanation from VeloNews

“Better science, nutrition, and technology, which helps any bike racer, only acts as an accelerant when applied to today’s über-talented youngsters. Lighter frames, aero helmets and skin-suits, calibrated diets and recovery, coupled with the granular attention to detail in training programs means young riders can advance their racing development at a staggering rate. If they have the motor, and the skills to back it up, they can expect to perform almost immediately.”

Arguably, the piece doesn’t unpack these claims because that’s not what the article is about. However, it doesn’t make any sense. “Better science, nutrition, and technology,” are available to all, not just young riders. So the “advantage” is shared by all. And as teams dictate what racers use, it’s hard to see those things resulting in an edge for anyone. The riders aren’t suddenly being given these advances, they have been available for some time. It’s not like young riders were racing on steel frames with 36-spoke box-section clinchers before they raced the WorldTour circuit. And five years ago, as well as long before, the science, nutrition, and technology of the day were similarly available to all.

Maybe the new generation is different and is somehow beating the older riders because even though everyone has them, the benefits only accrue to people under 22. This kind difference has been claimed for many generations. Maybe this time it’s true.

Have the limits of human performance changed?

Doping can be present, even if the athlete doesn’t go beyond what has been seen has humanly possible. That written, there does seem to be a consensus. When it comes to riding a bike uphill, the limit for a 10-20 minute effort is under 6.5 watts per kilogram. An analysis of the L’alpe d’Huez climb at the Tour shows some pretty stark numbers. This climb typically occurs at the end of a long road stage. It can take upwards of 37 minutes to ascend. LeMond climbed it at 5.7 w/kg in 1989 and 1990. Pantani climbed it at 6.6 w/kg in 1998. Armstrong managed 6.98 w/kg in a time trial up the Alpe in 2004. In 2008, when Riccardo Ricco was blowing everyone away in the Pyrenees at the Tour and then got busted for doping, coach Allen Lim said the following: —

“That was black and white. That was 6.7-watts-per-kg for 12 minutes. No one else has done anything else that in the Tour. Not even close. Everything has been tactical. Getting time before the climb. Riding at 5-watts-per-kg moving in the peloton to 5.5 to 5.7-watts-per-kg in the final 10km, maybe just under 6 watts in the final 5km. That’s normal physiology. Talk about a guy doing that for 10 minutes, 6.5, 6.7, you’re smoking crack or you’re some sort of man-greyhound hybrid.”

Looks like we might have a man-greyhound hybrid in Tadej Pogacar. Thanks to his and his team’s association with Stages Cycling and TrainingPeaks, we learned that the young Slovenian rode at 6.75 w/kg for the final 10 minutes of the Peyresourde. And it was sandwiched between a 10 minutes 6.42 w/kg effort on the lower part of the climb and nearly five minutes at 6.45 w/kg for the stage finale.

Of course, there are caveats. The power meter might not have been calibrated properly, or the offset drifted over the course of the day or climb, of he’s heavier than the advertised 66kg. But with the widespread use of powermeters, much of the guesswork separating what is equipment and what is human has largely evaporated.

Further, it’s within the realm farthest edge of possible that human performance has advanced some over the past 12 years. But that kind of advance, in the 5%-10% range, is far.

Strikingly, it has been reported that Pogacar didn’t use a powermeter or bike computer for his stage 20 time trial effort, at least for the climbing portion. Most of his competition did.

Can time trials reveal inadvertent truths?

Racing against the clock is known as “the race of truth” because each rider is alone. But they can also be revealing in other ways.

Because there aren’t the tactical skirmishes in time trials, the efforts are simple. There’s the rider. He’s going all out for a fixed distance. His competitors are also going all out for the same distance. Thanks to repeated efforts, we know how riders have compared to one another in other races. Thanks to competitive refinement, we can probably evaluate equipment choices as well—for the most part, elite time trialists are probably close to a draw when it comes to their equipment. Everyone uses a disc rear, a deep-dish front wheel, and their frames have to conform to UCI standards; the bikes are almost all so close as to be a wash. So their position is the variable. And when it comes to climbing, they probably all have bikes pretty close to the 6.8kg UCI minimum weight, and position probably doesn’t count for much when climbing at 20kph.

In 2008, German rider Stefan Schumacher suddenly became a time trial threat. He went from finishing behind the usual top time trial suspects to beating them handily in two Tour de France time trials. He didn’t have a markedly different start position than some of the competition, so it’s hard to claim he had better road conditions. He wasn’t riding a new bike or in a new time trial position. Turned, out, it was a new form of EPO.

Provided all the competitors we’re evaluating are trying to put in their maximum efforts and they’ve raced against one another in the recent past, we should have a decent idea of what they’re capable of.

At the 2020 Slovenian Time Trial Championships, held on June 28, Pogacar beat Roglic by nine seconds after 15.7km of racing. So in a 36km time trial, that would be 22 seconds or so. Interestingly, it seems they did the first half on road bikes, the second half on TT bikes. In 2019, both rode the 36.2km Jurancon-Pau individual time trial stage of the Vuelta a España, both putting out their maximum efforts, as both were going for the overall. Roglic beat Pogacar by 1:29. Pogacar finished third overall; Roglic won. Of course, there are the caveats about great days and terrible days, and Pogacar geting stronger as he gets older.

It’s hard to think equipment was the difference at the Tour. Both rode time trial bikes for the flatter section of the course and both switched to their road bikes at virtually the same spot on the climb. Pogacar might have had a slightly faster switch, but by then, 30km in, Pogacar was already 36 seconds ahead. And made up another 80 seconds in the final 6km.

Almost more striking is that Tom Dumoulin, who also was at the front the entire Tour and was riding both to win the stage and improve is overall standing, was beaten into second place on the day by 81 seconds after Pogacar’s ride. Dumoulin was shocked. “My values were World Championship-worthy values. That’s great to see,” he told Cyclingnews. “That’s why I was all the more surprised that Pogačar was 1:21 faster. I’m sure I can tell you I’m never going to reach that level. I may be able to win one per cent somewhere, but not five per cent.”

Dumoulin rode his time trial bike for the whole stage, rather than switch on the climb as Pogacar and Roglic did. He appears to have lost 21 seconds on the flatter part of the stage and then another minute on the climb.

I hope it was a clean Tour. But the old spidey sense is tingling.

Replying generally to the thread:

I am in a mixed boat on how fast the cyclists are going. For a brief personal perspective- when I was in HS from 2001-2005, I qualified for the sectional swim meet in Northern California. My best times put me in the top 20 in a few events for the HS sectional meet. I was a two or three sport HS athlete depending on the year, but swam year round. I was able to walk on to a small D1 school for swimming. Now, my times wouldn’t sniff finals, and would barely qualify for the meet. Everyone is training more, and training harder, and training better. There are more people doing more. You take lots of young kids, put them on the proper training, and away you go. The kids are faster these days.

On the other hand, you look at Pogacar, and he looks like he could go again and again and again. On stage 19 where Matteo Jorgensen was in the lead with ~8.5km to go and had a 3 minute gap to Pogacar and Vingegaard, Pogacar attacked and a) blew Vingegaard out of the water, and b) closed the three minute gap in 6.5km. In the last 8.5km, Pogacar put almost 3:30 into the leader (who admittedly had been out front all day), but also 1:42 into Jonas and Remco. And then did it again in stage 20, and won the final time trial.

It is hard to believe.

And as a counterpoint to my opening paragraph, Vingegaard was a fish packer ~5 years ago, and Roglic was a ski jumper. They don’t get the benefit of years of training in their childhood/youth.

And as a counterpoint to my opening paragraph, Vingegaard was a fish packer ~5 years ago, and Roglic was a ski jumper. They don’t ge the benefit of years of training in their childhood/youth.

Jonas Vingegaard was cycling competitively at the age of 10. He was already winning trophies at that age.

When he was working in the fish plant, he was working in the mornings, and training on his bike in the afternoons.

It’s hard to have a substantive discussion if we don’t get basic facts straight.

Surprisingly both Ricco and Pogacar both share the Matxin method…

He was working 6 hour days, so hardly compatible with elite training. And I got my facts right.

Replying generally to the thread:

I am in a mixed boat on how fast the cyclists are going. For a brief personal perspective- when I was in HS from 2001-2005, I qualified for the sectional swim meet in Northern California. My best times put me in the top 20 in a few events for the HS sectional meet. I was a two or three sport HS athlete depending on the year, but swam year round. I was able to walk on to a small D1 school for swimming. Now, my times wouldn’t sniff finals, and would barely qualify for the meet. Everyone is training more, and training harder, and training better. There are more people doing more. You take lots of young kids, put them on the proper training, and away you go. The kids are faster these days.

On the other hand, you look at Pogacar, and he looks like he could go again and again and again. On stage 19 where Matteo Jorgensen was in the lead with ~8.5km to go and had a 3 minute gap to Pogacar and Vingegaard, Pogacar attacked and a) blew Vingegaard out of the water, and b) closed the three minute gap in 6.5km. In the last 8.5km, Pogacar put almost 3:30 into the leader (who admittedly had been out front all day), but also 1:42 into Jonas and Remco. And then did it again in stage 20, and won the final time trial.

It is hard to believe.

And as a counterpoint to my opening paragraph, Vingegaard was a fish packer ~5 years ago, and Roglic was a ski jumper. They don’t ge the benefit of years of training in their childhood/youth.

On Roglic, I wonder what sports he did in his youth in addition to ski jumping. As ski jumping is initially only a winter sport (until you specialize and train year round), he must have been doing other sport to develop an aerobic system for when he transitioned from ski jumping to cycling. Primoz moved to cycling around 2012 and by 2017 he was racing in the tour de France and 2018 was 4th in GC behind Thomas, Dumoulin, Froome. So he’s been riding a lot for over a decade now.

This year’s numbers definitely seem to be mind blowing to me. I understand there is estimations, training advantages, new tech, etc. But I’d estimate that should get you what, 2-4min on a climb? That should put them on the same level as the dopers, not surpassing them.

Also, the explosiveness is mind blowing to me. The attacks he can put in from a threshold effort is absurd and not taken into account of these estimations. I couldn’t even attack like that from z2 efforts, but maybe his threshold is so much higher then that is what he’s doing.

Last, it’s not just pogacar. Everyone is flying these days. Sure pogacar is 1-2% higher and that really shows on these climbs, but there are 3-5 guys at a huge level in the pro peloton on their day right now. Remember a few years back when Van Aert was destroying everyone on the front of the peloton? I bet his w/kg were pretty insane too, just harder for us keyboard warriors to estimate.

He was working 6 hour days, so hardly compatible with elite training.

Eh, he was riding for a Conti team at the time. I believe a lot of riders at that level are working at least part time. It’s certainly not unheard of.

And I got my facts right.

Apologies if you thought I was referring to you. I wasn’t.

Remember a few years back when Van Aert was destroying everyone on the front of the peloton? I bet his w/kg were pretty insane too, just harder for us keyboard warriors to estimate.
The image of the green, yellow, white jersey train up Mont whatever-it-was will be etched in my memory forever. Iconic moment and the green jersey then dropped the best cyclist of our lifetimes.

This year’s numbers definitely seem to be mind blowing to me. I understand there is estimations, training advantages, new tech, etc. But I’d estimate that should get you what, 2-4min on a climb? That should put them on the same level as the dopers, not surpassing them.

Also, the explosiveness is mind blowing to me. The attacks he can put in from a threshold effort is absurd and not taken into account of these estimations. I couldn’t even attack like that from z2 efforts, but maybe his threshold is so much higher then that is what he’s doing.

Last, it’s not just pogacar. Everyone is flying these days. Sure pogacar is 1-2% higher and that really shows on these climbs, but there are 3-5 guys at a huge level in the pro peloton on their day right now. Remember a few years back when Van Aert was destroying everyone on the front of the peloton? I bet his w/kg were pretty insane too, just harder for us keyboard warriors to estimate.

That’s what I was saying about Plateau de Beille. Guys like Landa and Yates who could not keep up with Froome are in the vicinity of Pantani’s times.

Here is an interesting piece on La Tourbie + Col d’Eze ITT from Sunday (not sure where they got their watt per kilo numbers from and they are for a 17 + 4 min climb):

https://lanternerouge.com/2024/07/21/pogacar-fastest-on-climbs-in-the-final-time-trial-tour-de-france-2024-stage-21/

Due to high speed and different cDa (coefficient of drag) on climbs, the calculations might not be as accurate as usual for all the riders. Pogačar was the fastest on both climbs. On La Turbie he pushed 7.05 ᵉW/Kg for 16:58 min, while on the short but steep Col d’Eze it was 8.02 ᵉW/Kg for 4:15 min. Jonas Vingegaard lost 8 seconds on La Turbie with 6.98 ᵉW/Kg and was 16 seconds slower on Col d’Eze with 7.47 ᵉW/Kg. World Champion in time-trial Remco Evenepoel on both climbs combined lost 46 seconds to Pogačar with 6.85 ᵉW/Kg and 7.23 ᵉW/Kg.

Does anyone have Derek Gee’s numbers from the same climb at 78 kilos (more interested in his top line numbers)

Not replying to anyone in particular.

I’m a huge Tadej fan and wanted him to win this Tour. Like everyone else my mind was blown by his performance.
In the past when he was coached by Iñigo San Millán I never questioned his performance. Mainly because of Dr. San Millán’s work in academia and the research he performed. I felt like Dr. San Millán had too much to lose in a doping scandal.

Now that Tadej has a new coach and otherworldly performances it does make me raise an eyebrow.
Regardless I loved this Tour and feel like it was one for the ages.