The winter is coming and so is the trainer season. I’ve been googling for a while now and learned a lot about Trainerroad, ERG mode etc. Based on that I want to get a new trainer and start punishing myself for the upcoming summer 2017. This gets me to my question.
Should I buy:
A high-end direct drive trainer like Tacx Neo or Wahoo Kickr or
a low-end direct drive trainer (eg. Elite Turbo Muin) and a power meter like Power2Max S?
I’d like a direct drive trainer anyway to enjoy the lower volume level. Currently I don’t have a power meter so that’s anyway on the shopping list at some point. But what will I be missing with a lower-end trainer vs. the likes of Tacx Neo?
FWIW, I have a Felt DA 2013 with Ultegra Di2 groupset as the bike to be set up on the trainer.
There are obviously lots of differences between the trainers at various levels. If I were you I’d be looking to get a Tacx Flux. Almost the same as a NEO but scaling back slightly on the incline (20% vs 15% simulation), Maximum wattage 2000W vs 1500W to name a few.
I own the Neo and if I were buying today I’d likely get this and save the additional funds in my pocket. That being said I haven’t seen pricing details just yet but it’s got to be a couple hundred to separate the two.
I’d say the answer does depend on where you will spend your training.
If you plan on being a near-100% indoor trainer guy, the direct drive trainer is the way to go. I did this for one season, was worth the investment for sure.
If you only sporadically ride indoors, or never do when it’s nice out, go with the Powermeter.
In reality though, you will almost certainly buy a powermeter shortly after getting a direct drive trainer, so this discussion will be moot. Even if you can’t really afford a powermeter, you will scrounge and find a way to buy one anyway after living on something like a Kickr for a long time.
If you really get into power data, it will literally rip your insides out to do any riding outdoors without a power meter. If you obsess even a little bit over training data, a power meter is like crack.
So, you need to ask yourself if you are going to want to do power based workouts on the road or how freaked out you are going to get next April when your PMC chart starts getting messed up because your outdoor rides have no power data and how much it will make you twitch to not know for sure if you just turned in a new 20 minute max power on that Saturday group ride.
Some people can handle not having power data all the time. Some can’t. As mentioned, if you are the former, you will beg borrow or steal a power meter next season. So, look in the mirror and budget accordingly
Absolutely no question - get the power meter. If you take the time to learn how to leverage it, or hire a coach that knows, the PM will provide a ton of advantage in training and racing that you won’t get from a fancy trainer. My personal preference is a nice fluid trainer and a good power meter. You can still use TrainerRoad if you want but have the benefit of that PM outside. IMO the “smart trainers” are mostly novelty. Very cool gadgets but you are paying a premium for bells and whistles. In the end all you need from a trainer is reliable consistent resistance - unless you don’t have the focus and discipline and need the distraction of stuff like Zwift to get through workouts.
Another vote for going with a powermeter and a “dumb” trainer. The real benefit of power is being able to do all your training as well as your races with it. If you like analyzing numbers and comparing rides, it’s a great tool. I wish I would’ve sprung for one years ago.
My n=1: I have a dumb trainer (KK Fluid2 and really like it) with Power2Max Classic and I use TrainerRoad (and sometimes Sufferfest). I did the math recently and 90% of my rides are indoors and I am completely content with my setup. I do swap the PM to the race bike for races and am probably going to pull the trigger this fall on a second PM just so I don’t have to swap back and forth. It’s easy enough to do, but, you know…first world probs.
Good luck with your decision. Training with power is worth the investment.
unless you don’t have the focus and discipline and need the distraction of stuff like Zwift to get through workouts.
Gotta love those sweeping statements…
I have a dumb (and noisy) direct drive trainer, which also has power (no idea of accuracy, but I guess that’s not the point). Smart trainers look like fun for Zwifting etc. although I’m pretty happy with my setup. It can start to get a bit spendy with direct drive smart trainers, which would have power but for road riding you’d want another power meter (and you’d need to make sure that they give similar readings so work on the trainer can be compared to work outside?)
Comes down to $$ really, if money were no object, I’d get a smart trainer (direct drive) and a power meter, but for now as another poster said, I think a power meter will be next…
But then I am clearly unfocused, undisciplined and easily distracted… :o)
My point was that IMO, the smart trainers don’t provide any additional training value over a traditional trainer, power meter, and knowing how to take advantage of them. If you disagree then please explain how a smart trainer is more effective. I’m perfectly happy to run TR and watch some DVR while I hammer out structured workouts. Short and sweet. I don’t need it to be a video game or any sort of virtual reality. Not that there’s anything wrong with having those features but seeing as how the OP asked for opinions on which would be a better choice, I stand by my suggestion of a good power meter and less expensive trainer as providing more bang for the buck training value.
If you’re not going to race for a while and will buy a power meter prior to your next race then I’d say get something like the Neo. If you have a fixed budget for such items for, say, the next two years, I’d get the power meter and a basic trainer. One of the advantages of training with power is pacing with power on race day.
My mistake. I thought you were suggesting that folk who used Zwift didn’t have the focus, discipline etc to work out effectively on a wind trainer. My bad.
I don’t know that smart trainers do lend anything to the training effect, as I haven’t ever used one. But I guess that anything that makes training easier and more enjoyable is a good thing? I use Zwift sometimes, it makes it fun, and I do longer sessions than I used to, plus I meet and interact with folks from all over the world. And my FTP has improved.
I have heard anecdotally that smart trainers add realism (and more fun) with the automatic resistance for simulating going up hill (and presumably easier going down?) but I don’t know, having not used one. If it’s more fun, I will train longer so there’s benefit there n’est pas? I used to not look forward to wind training, but now I do.
I think we are actually saying the same thing - I would get a power meter next, as it’s transferable inside/outside… You don’t need a spendy wind trainer, but I would suggest giving Zwift or similar a try. It’s not for everyone, especially if you’re lucky enough to live somewhere when weather is always good enough for riding outside.
I didn’t mean to blanket imply they don’t, but that would be a good reason to get one if you happen to be the type that has a hard time staying focused or needs additional motivation. Point being the distraction/motivation factor can actually be helpful if you need it. I don’t need it so the value just isn’t there for me. And if the OP doesn’t NEED it then I’d divert more $ towards the power meter. If $ isn’t a factor then go crazy with the toys.
My mistake. I thought you were suggesting that folk who used Zwift didn’t have the focus, discipline etc to work out effectively on a wind trainer.
A smart trainer is nice since it doesn’t allow you to fall below the target power when using TrainerRoad and with Zwift resistance will change based on the course. But you can absolutely get just as effective a workout with a dumb trainer and a power meter.
Have a quick looky around the Zwift blog/faffbook/website. There’s a bunch of folks there who have tried most of the trainers available, and as My Esteemed Colleague TH3_FRB says, a fluid trainer may serve you well, and I think they are pretty quiet now? Certainly quieter than my direct drive which has a big go-away fan and sounds like a jet plane landing on full reverse thrust (clearly, I produce massive wattage…).
Oh, and Mr DC Rainmaker who has great revues of both powermeters and wind trainers. I think a “smart” non-direct drive trainer might be about the same cost as a “dumb” direct drive, and my understanding is that if the non-direct drive has a big flywheel, you get pretty good road-like riding experience? I am sure there are folks on here who have experience of direct drive versus non.
I also have a dedicated bike (QR Redstone with cracked head tube) for my direct drive so I don’t have to faff around taking the wheel off (which isn’t such a big deal, but anything to make life easier). I’m lucky enough to have enough space to leave it set up all the time. This may be a consideration for you too? Direct drives can be heavy old brutes to move around much.
I picked up a used turbo muin for pretty cheap and I bought the misuro b+ for it and I have cadence and a heart rate monitor. Trainer road and having that trainer is a life saver for a busy professional with kids.
I’ve only been using it for a month but the differences are noticeable and now I can do a workout whenever time permits.
I think a few more details are in order:
The training will happen 100 % indoors for the whole winter. I live in Finland (northern Europe) so if it’s nice outside, the sport of the day is cross-country skiing and not cycling The bike will be enjoying fresh air for the next time in April / May.I do obsess over data. The best thing to happen to my running was getting Garmin FR620 two years ago, being able to measure my running cadence and then improving accordingly. Would imagine wanting to do the same for cycling power come next summer…By ST standards, I guess I am somewhat undisciplined. Last winter I had a very old Tacx trainer (ie. ~1995 old) that was probably “smart” during the period it was built. It was able to measure power although I have no clue as to how accurate it was - I just assumed it to be consistent between my rides. Anyhow, during the tougher workouts I had to bail out and decrease resistance as my legs were failing me. This is where in my mind TR and a smart trainer come into the equation. Being able to measure my FTP, then start training with TR and correct power levels and then have TR make sure I don’t give up → no excuses → success! At least that’s the result I’m hoping for :)And last but not the least, I would love to be getting the best bang for my euro but I’m also quite good in coughing up the extra budget if needed. Still I know it will be a struggle with the missus to get budget for the PM approved next spring. Therefore I thought that maybe if I cut down on the trainer cost I could squeeze it in already with this “investment application”
Flux was already on my radar but then I started seeing the delivery times being pushed back to December. I want to start training now! Then I looked into Turbo Muin but found some comments online about it losing resistance after two years of use. Can’t have that since I hate re-investing in the same thing. So the question is to Kickr or not to Kickr…
The target for the whole thing is get my HIM bike time down from about 2:32 to around 2:20. My goal for next summer is to break 4:50 for the half distance (current PB 5:04:54). Since I’m stocky + short-legged there’s not that much room for improvement on the run so most of the gains will have to come from the swim (currently 1:50 / 100 m) and the bike. And for the bike, this time it has to come from my legs and not a new aero frame or a better wheelset.
A PM on the bike is a boon for sure, when you first race the IM distance and pace properly by power it will be a revelation. I couldn’t believe how poorly the riders around me were pacing their efforts, especially on the uphills. So for me, it isn’t just training, it is racing as well.
But… whatever trainer I was buying, if I could possibly buy a smart trainer it would have to have ERG mode. Just being able to stop having to look constantly at the power reading during your workout is a massive win. In ERG mode you can just crack on and pedal the damn cranks. Really nice for your longer steady workouts when you want to watch Game of Thrones and you can concentrate on waiting for the bit where Rose Leslie takes her kit off. Equally helpful in your shorter Trainerroad/Sufferfest workouts where you can focus internally on the effort or being in the moment in the video footage without having to check your output all the time.
So for me, the answer would be Tacx Flux + Power2Max, these days. I have it on reasonable authority (Mr Rainmaker) that you can use your PM output to set the ERG resistance with Trainerroad in this setup (like folk do with kickr), because it is determined by the behaviour of the software and not the trainer itself.
In which case I’d get yourself a nice smart, direct drive trainer now, and then by spring I reckon you’ll have found the money/desire to add a power meter as well
I’ve just dipped my toe into proper indoor training for the first time with a Wahoo Kickr, having previously only had a set of rollers which I used for the occasional spin of up to 1 hour. I’m still going to do >80% of my training outside (and without power) but am finding that 1-2 sessions per week on the Kickr is great. I just pick a suitable TR workout, put the laptop on a stool next to the bike, and then settle into a good movie or boxset on the TV. Even without power outside, it’s been a help in calibrating my HR and RPE anyway. More a case of confirming what I already knew (not surprising given that I’ve been riding on HR and RPE for >20 years!), but still good to corroborate.
I thought about this same question for the last year or so and ended up buying a PM for the bike. I already had a Kurt Kinetic trainer so the PM for the bike was an obvious choice. Now 3 months on I’m really glad that I did it.
I have been racing triathlon for 20 years and never done a race with a PM and can’t wait to actually race now. I realized that my pacing sucked. I have been over cooking the hills by a huge margin as long as I have been riding. I never realized that until I bought the powertap and never would have known that if I had only a smart trainer. I have also learned it is difficult to get a short quality ride done outdoors. Stops, turns, lights, traffic, they all make sustained efforts like you can do indoors next to impossible.
The bike will be enjoying fresh air for the next time in April / May.I do obsess over data. The best thing to happen to my running was getting Garmin FR620 two years ago, being able to measure my running cadence and then improving accordingly. Would imagine wanting to do the same for cycling power come next summer…By ST standards, I guess I am somewhat undisciplined. Last winter I had a very old Tacx trainer (ie. ~1995 old) that was probably “smart” during the period it was built. It was able to measure power although I have no clue as to how accurate it was - I just assumed it to be consistent between my rides. Anyhow, during the tougher workouts I had to bail out and decrease resistance as my legs were failing me. This is where in my mind TR and a smart trainer come into the equation. Being able to measure my FTP, then start training with TR and correct power levels and then have TR make sure I don’t give up → no excuses → success! At least that’s the result I’m hoping for :)And last but not the least, I would love to be getting the best bang for my euro but I’m also quite good in coughing up the extra budget if needed. Still I know it will be a struggle with the missus to get budget for the PM approved next spring. Therefore I thought that maybe if I cut down on the trainer cost I could squeeze it in already with this “investment application” 