The past few days there’s been Dan’s article and thread about highly cushioned shoes along with a poll that’s showing (currently) a plurality of people preferring highly cushioned shoes: 44% high, 34% average, 22% more road feel.
I started running around the time minimalist and low drop shoes started becoming popular and I was one of the people who laughed the first time I saw HOKAs. I thought they looked stupid and the idea of maximalist cushioning sounded anathema to the idea that shoes should emphasize the “foot’s connection to the ground” as Dan put it. Nearly all my training and racing shoes have been low drop and pretty minimal cushioning (lots and lots of Inov8s, some Scott RCs, old Nike Free 3.0, etc.). The first shoe I ran in that I’d call cushy was the Saucony ISO Freedom. Then this past season I mostly trained/raced in Skechers Razor 3s, which I think are the most cushioned shoe I’ve ever had with 22mm of hyerburst in the forefoot.
I like the Razor 3 so I recently tried the GoRun Ride Hyper 8 (27mm forefoot, 33mm heel) but returned them because they felt different than what I’m used to. Taller, less flexible, less road feel.
Admittedly I’ve probably been biased against cushioned shoes, thinking (mistakenly) lots of cushion was like cheating and a way to mask poor form. But with great runners setting course records in these high cushion, higher drop shoes it looks like I’m probably being a stuborn idiot.
Has anyone gone from more minimal shoes to HOKAs (or similar) and disliked the extra cushioning? Anything to be cautious of with more cushion, maybe like “good for the knees but bad for the ankles”? Do people find they are more likely to heel strike or get sloppy just cause they can?
If some of these highly cushioned shoes means I can put in more and more miles with less wear on the body then I’ll probably be a convert.
Anything to be cautious of with more cushion, maybe like “good for the knees but bad for the ankles”? //
When I went from regular shoes to Hokas, I had one major problem. I became confused of what my weekly mileage should look like, as it was 0 for so long, my memory of running 3 to 5 days a week was quite a shock.
But really, just go for it, the old days when you got to be surrounded by friends who thought like you, and you all could rag on anyone wearing the clown shoes, has long passed. In its wake are the few old curmudgeons who are still hanging onto the clown shoe theme, while the give more than they should to their local PT…And when you do test them, forget about speed, and just focus on how your legs feel after a really hard session, or a few hard days. Try and remember what they used to feel like, and do an honest comparison between the two.
I went from running in Nike Frees to now running in saucony kinvara, saucony freedom ISO, Nike epic react, and nike zoom fly.
You’ll feel funny wearing them to begin with, but you’ll get over it after a few runs.
My favorite of the group are the saucony freedom followed by the Zoom Fly. I get that “sloppy†feeling you describe in the epic react. The saucony kinvara just feel a bit “dull†to me.
I still like the nike free for wearing to work and around, but I’ve come to do most of my runs in more a moderate to higher cushioned shoe.
I purchased a couple of pairs of Hokas a couple of years ago but haven’t worn them regularly because I haven’t had injury/pain issues wearing my Nike Pegasus. I do most of my running on grass or dirt.
Are there any year-long or more studies showing that runners wearing highly cushioned shoes have reduced injury rates and/or are able to run more miles? If so, please provide links if possible. Thanks!
I spent a number of years in different levels of ‘minimal’ shoes (as thin as the Vibram Five Fingers and Altria Sampson) and nothing over 20mm. I decided give Hokas (Bondi 6) a try after hearing so many many people rave about them. I wasn’t a big fan of them and after a month of doing half my miles in them (just too soft) I developed really bad Achilles tendinitis and had to take 3 months off to let it heal. Maybe it was just a coincidence, but I got rid of them and don’t plan on ever trying Hokas again.
That said I do like the 4% for fast runs and racing
Personally I think anyone’s running quirks are so personal that it’s hard to be sure what will work for anyone in particular. I think the best approach would be to get something and use it something like once a week until you know one way or the other. Lots of us use high cushion shoes because injuries force us to try them and we find it works. Much more recently we’ve got high performance cushioned shoes and that’s a whole different thing. Are you battling with a recurring injury and/or looking for a pb on race day?
In very general terms my theory is high cushion is good for lower leg problems but not so much for knees and up. But having said, I think I’m right, that there are high profile people here who use some of the most cush shoes purely for knee injuries. Like I say, it’s really an individual thing. If it’s race day then I think the Nike next% is the obvious one now with interesting stuff on the way from others. If its an interest in being able to squeeze a few more miles out in training safely then my suggestion would be get some Hoka Clifton on sale so you aren’t tempted to return them and just gradually do more in them until you know if they are for you.
the few old curmudgeons who are still hanging onto the clown shoe theme, while the give more than they should to their local PT…
As it so happens I am currently one of those curmudgeons who’s giving to my local PT. I was building toward an off season run block and everything was going fine until about two weeks ago when my right achilles decided to shut me down. Since then all my “running” has been in the pool or on an elliptical. Maybe a pair of these marshmallow clown shoes will help me get back on track!
Not recurring, but I am on an undesired break from running at the moment (see above)
and/or looking for a pb on race day?
Yes – who isn’t!?
If its an interest in being able to squeeze a few more miles out in training safely then my suggestion would be get some Hoka Clifton on sale so you aren’t tempted to return them and just gradually do more in them until you know if they are for you.
So the Clifton is a safe/recommended place to start? I was looking at the Rincon, but if it’s easier to find deals on Cliftons then that may make the choice easier.
I don’t think you’re missing anything. If anything, if I were you I’d stick with the minimalist shoes!
I did barefoot/minimalist for about 2 years not too long ago after 20+ yrs of normal shoe running. It was one of the hardest, most frustrating things in terms of building up I did - I literally went from a sub 19 5k runner to not even being able to race at all for 6+ months since the transition was tough on my achilles (which I am lucky to not have any injuries with.)
The good things were many - I actually think most people who can run injury free with minimalist SHOULD go minimalist, for the following:
Forces a proper slow mileage buildup. You can’t just go hog wild one day and run 20 miles on a base of 5 mpw - your achilles will rebel and you’ll halt pretty quickly.
Forces much better run form in terms of good posture and balance on the feet. I honestly think Lionel Sanders would improve his stride form significantly if he tried minimalist shoes for technique improvement and slowly incorporated more of it - his clompy heel strike stride is nearly impossible with barefoot/minimalist shoes.
Makes you much more aware of how to respond best to terrain changes with many different types of strides and cadences, which is great for form and run efficiency. (In contrast, you can bulldoze your way through the same terrain with big cushiony shoes, but it’s likely slower and def a lot less graceful.)
Light = FAST. I ran my fastest triathlon runs with minimalist shoes.
And this is my theory, but one that definitely applied to me - since the minimalist shoes much more emphasize achilles/calf and spare the quad, you don’t have as much run fatigue coming off the bike as you’re engaging a different set of muscles (not just all quad). That was definitely true for me - was very noticeable to me off the bike where I’d just take off on the minimalist shoes since my calves/achilles were good to go after a hard bike.
Alas, I now run in big cushy Hoka Bondi 6s. I have MRI confirmed advanced arthritis in my ankles in my mere mid40s , and the minimalist shoes seemed to unfortunately aggravate the pain due to the higher forces on the lower leg/ankle (rather than quad). I’m happy to report that the cushiony shoes seem to have got me back to running as long as I keep my mileage not too high, but I def have taken a significant hit on speed and form as a result. Wish I could go back to minimalist, though, for all the reasons above.
Not all Hokas are created equal. Some are kinda firm. Some have more cushion than others.
Cliftons were mentioned. I have some Clifton 4 and they’re much stiffer than other Hokas I’ve had and have a weird arch fit. Supposedly the Rincon is more traditional Hoka-like.
Hoka’s midsoles seem to last forever. I just have the problem of the uppers tearing.
There’s nothing wrong with heel-striking. Some of the fastest runners in the world are heel-strikers and there’s no evidence that it’s bad or that changing it would help. https://www.sciencedaily.com/.../12/191212104646.htm
Afraid it’s trial-and-error to find what works for you. I’ve been running injury-free for 30+ years and have tried just about everything from minimalist to Bondi, although most years have run in heavy motion control shoes because they stood up to my weight and there wasn’t much else available in size 16 (I can wear 15 or even some 14s now). Maybe I could wear anything. Others seem to battle injury all the time no matter what they try.
Not recurring, but I am on an undesired break from running at the moment (see above)
and/or looking for a pb on race day?
Yes – who isn’t!?
If its an interest in being able to squeeze a few more miles out in training safely then my suggestion would be get some Hoka Clifton on sale so you aren’t tempted to return them and just gradually do more in them until you know if they are for you.
So the Clifton is a safe/recommended place to start? I was looking at the Rincon, but if it’s easier to find deals on Cliftons then that may make the choice easier.
I think the Rincon is a reasonable price but still a bit new to get deals on. Cliftons have been around a long time and you can normally get good deals on last years. I just find them comfortable. I’ve never tried the Bondi but that may just be the psychology of choice and not going the extreme. If you can find a Napali or a Clifton reissue they might be worth a go. The Hoka Fly range seem firmer in the forefoot. The Elevon is ok for instance I just prefer the Clifton. Dan has lots of Hoka articles here that are good reads.
I tried a Hoka you can’t get anymore out of desperation with Achilles problems. At the same time I switched to a little and often approach rather than trying to do runs I’d done before with rest days in between. Someone here said tendons don’t like too much load and don’t like no load (except when it’s acutely injured. So you are looking for the Goldilocks load that you personally can do today, tomorrow and 6 or 7 times a week while it gets stronger. It felt silly going out for a 10/15 minute run in clown shoes but it works and it’s not long before you get confidence back and you can increase it. I am back to proper running now and I only get hurt if I do something silly like do a 12 mile on a whim I haven’t built up to.
I spent a number of years in different levels of ‘minimal’ shoes (as thin as the Vibram Five Fingers and Altria Sampson) and nothing over 20mm. I decided give Hokas (Bondi 6) a try after hearing so many many people rave about them. I wasn’t a big fan of them and after a month of doing half my miles in them (just too soft) I developed really bad Achilles tendinitis and had to take 3 months off to let it heal. Maybe it was just a coincidence, but I got rid of them and don’t plan on ever trying Hokas again.
That said I do like the 4% for fast runs and racing
I had the same story and I tried to correlate the Achilles with soft cushioning but could not find any scientific explanation. I am on 4% now since 2 months and I love them. I hope they will not generate the same injury…
I think the Rincon is a reasonable price but still a bit new to get deals on. Cliftons have been around a long time and you can normally get good deals on last years. I just find them comfortable. I’ve never tried the Bondi but that may just be the psychology of choice and not going the extreme. If you can find a Napali or a Clifton reissue they might be worth a go. The Hoka Fly range seem firmer in the forefoot. The Elevon is ok for instance I just prefer the Clifton. Dan has lots of Hoka articles here that are good reads.
I tried a Hoka you can’t get anymore out of desperation with Achilles problems. At the same time I switched to a little and often approach rather than trying to do runs I’d done before with rest days in between. Someone here said tendons don’t like too much load and don’t like no load (except when it’s acutely injured. So you are looking for the Goldilocks load that you personally can do today, tomorrow and 6 or 7 times a week while it gets stronger. It felt silly going out for a 10/15 minute run in clown shoes but it works and it’s not long before you get confidence back and you can increase it. I am back to proper running now and I only get hurt if I do something silly like do a 12 mile on a whim I haven’t built up to.
Good luck.
Unfortunately any Cliftons you can get on sale right now aren’t good (too firm). The Clifton 3 was the last good one. The 6 is supposed to be more like the 3 but I haven’t tried it yet. The Rincon is more like a Clayton. Super light but not as squishy as the Clifton, but would still recommend it over Clifton 4 or 5. The re-release of the Clifton 1 might be a good option as I see it’s on sale now, but I’m not sure how much like the original it is.
I spent a number of years in different levels of ‘minimal’ shoes (as thin as the Vibram Five Fingers and Altria Sampson) and nothing over 20mm. I decided give Hokas (Bondi 6) a try after hearing so many many people rave about them. I wasn’t a big fan of them and after a month of doing half my miles in them (just too soft) I developed really bad Achilles tendinitis and had to take 3 months off to let it heal. Maybe it was just a coincidence, but I got rid of them and don’t plan on ever trying Hokas again.
That said I do like the 4% for fast runs and racing
I had the same story and I tried to correlate the Achilles with soft cushioning but could not find any scientific explanation. I am on 4% now since 2 months and I love them. I hope they will not generate the same injury…
Are you racing and training in the 4%? I thought most runners use the 4% and next% primarily as race day shoes because neither is durable enough to train in consistently.
Either way, both these comments make it sound like there might not be a relationship between Achilles problems and soft cushioning given that you both like the 4%.
Altra says to use more cushion for foot pain, less for joint pain higher up.
That struck me as brilliant, especially as post spine fusion (Dr. says “Running? We’ll see…”) I’ve had the most luck with less cushion.
I don’t think you’re missing anything. If anything, if I were you I’d stick with the minimalist shoes!
I did barefoot/minimalist for about 2 years not too long ago after 20+ yrs of normal shoe running. It was one of the hardest, most frustrating things in terms of building up I did - I literally went from a sub 19 5k runner to not even being able to race at all for 6+ months since the transition was tough on my achilles (which I am lucky to not have any injuries with.)
The good things were many - I actually think most people who can run injury free with minimalist SHOULD go minimalist, for the following:
Forces a proper slow mileage buildup. You can’t just go hog wild one day and run 20 miles on a base of 5 mpw - your achilles will rebel and you’ll halt pretty quickly.
Forces much better run form in terms of good posture and balance on the feet. I honestly think Lionel Sanders would improve his stride form significantly if he tried minimalist shoes for technique improvement and slowly incorporated more of it - his clompy heel strike stride is nearly impossible with barefoot/minimalist shoes.
Makes you much more aware of how to respond best to terrain changes with many different types of strides and cadences, which is great for form and run efficiency. (In contrast, you can bulldoze your way through the same terrain with big cushiony shoes, but it’s likely slower and def a lot less graceful.)
Light = FAST. I ran my fastest triathlon runs with minimalist shoes.
And this is my theory, but one that definitely applied to me - since the minimalist shoes much more emphasize achilles/calf and spare the quad, you don’t have as much run fatigue coming off the bike as you’re engaging a different set of muscles (not just all quad). That was definitely true for me - was very noticeable to me off the bike where I’d just take off on the minimalist shoes since my calves/achilles were good to go after a hard bike.
Alas, I now run in big cushy Hoka Bondi 6s. I have MRI confirmed advanced arthritis in my ankles in my mere mid40s , and the minimalist shoes seemed to unfortunately aggravate the pain due to the higher forces on the lower leg/ankle (rather than quad). I’m happy to report that the cushiony shoes seem to have got me back to running as long as I keep my mileage not too high, but I def have taken a significant hit on speed and form as a result. Wish I could go back to minimalist, though, for all the reasons above.
Seems like the simple answer is to just get a pair of these cushy shoes and work them in to the rotation. Some runs on more minimalist, some easy and/or long runs on pillows. Hope that the minimalist helps keep my feet/ankles/calves strong while the maximalist help add some easy miles.
That said, am I seeing some contradictions in your post? Minimalist helped you strengthen everything from the knees down but now you can only run in Bondis because of ankle arthritis? Or are the two unrelated?
I’m just coming off a grade 2 calf strain, and haven’t ruled out my Hokas as the cause. Have the Napali (Rincon replaced the Napali) and the Clifton 4. I purchased some cushioned shoes (New Balance Beacon also) to help with knee pain, and it helped greatly. However after runs with the Naples my Achilles was sore, to the point were I had to take a day off to recover. Didn’t seem to have that issue with the Clifton 4 and my knee was pain free after the run. Then during a run in the Napali my calf tore. Could just be coincidence and I am going to slowly work the shoes back into my rotation because they were great for my knee pain reduction. Plan is to may close attention to the start of Achilles pain as the early indicator.
The ankle arthritis has been going on for decades, at least 10 yrs prior to minimalist shoes, from more than 20 bilateral ankle sprains from basketball in my earlier days.
I actually switched to minimalist shoes in hopes of slowing the growing pain in my ankles that was occuring every year as I got older, but unfortunately it didn’t help with that, and now I’m fairly certain that the high impact centered on the lower leg from minimalist is limiting.
I do agree with what most scientists have found regarding shoes and cushion or lack thereof - no shoe eliminates the forces. The forces are just redistributed with various shoes. So some shoes send more forces to your hip, some to knee, some to ankle/achilles. It’s likely prudent to use whatever shoe redistributes the forces to the areas that are your strongest and least degenerate. I actually thought previously that the cushioned shoes would dramatically reduce peak impact force at the least, but apparently even that isn’t true - those peak forces are just moved around as well.
One pure speculative theory I have (definitely just pure speculation, I have zero data for it!) is that since knee arthritis is 10x more common than ankle arthritis (that is a true fact from science/medicine), the general running public might be better off barefoot or minimalist, as the forces are much more directed toward achilles/ankle/foot rather than knee. It’s amazing how much force the achilles can absorb and return once you get acclimated to minimalist running - I would run up 15% grades with a fraction of the quad fatigue that I get in Hoka Bondi6s, but my achilles had to be conditioned enough to tolerate it.
I’m just coming off a grade 2 calf strain, and haven’t ruled out my Hokas as the cause. Have the Napali (Rincon replaced the Napali) and the Clifton 4. I purchased some cushioned shoes (New Balance Beacon also) to help with knee pain, and it helped greatly. However after runs with the Naples my Achilles was sore, to the point were I had to take a day off to recover. Didn’t seem to have that issue with the Clifton 4 and my knee was pain free after the run. Then during a run in the Napali my calf tore. Could just be coincidence and I am going to slowly work the shoes back into my rotation because they were great for my knee pain reduction. Plan is to may close attention to the start of Achilles pain as the early indicator.
Yikes – sorry to hear about your calf strain. That sucks.
I’m starting to think finding the right shoes is more confusing than swim breathing patterns…
I’ve tried literally everything. Nike, Hoka, Newton, Merrill, Altra, Asics, Adidas, Brooks, Saucony, Inv8, Sketchers… you name it. Someone introduced me to minimalist shoes and I thought those are the right ones because I didn’t know any better. You just have to try and see what’s best for you. If I run long distance or short distance fast, I usually can tell if the shoes is right for me or not. Running form, style, distance, your weight, road condition, weather… there are so many variables, so just try different pairs and find out.