Help Me Plan my ERO Session

Triathlon Forum
1

So I signed up for an ERO session on January 16th. I’ve never done aero testing, and am getting back into triathlon after a period off. I’m doing IMLP next summer, I ride a Dimond. Anyone want to make suggestions or critique my plan?

  • Obviously, position testing will be the majority of the time/effort

  • Second, I want to test various hydration options with the goal of getting the fastest two bottle configuration (or three bottle configuration if that turns out faster somehow). I plan to get a Dimond Marquise before race day, so am not too concerned with food storage or flat kit placement. Baseline would just be a plain BTA bottle. Here was what I planned to test:

a. Whether a double BTA bottle setup like this works for me: forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=3731
b. how (a) and baseline compare to a profile fc25
c. Whether a plain rear-mounted bottle makes me faster
d. How that compares to the x-lab aero pouch (www.xlab-usa.com/aero-pouch-300.html)
e. if the aerodrink works best AND a rear bottle is a penalty, then I might try a Jesse Thomas type setup: www.triathlete.com/2016/10/ironman/pro-bike-jesse-thomas-dimond-marquise_294207

  • Third, I wanted to test whether calf sleeves really might significantly reduce drag (http://www.ero-sports.com/index.php/whatsmoreaero/83-why-skin-is-slow). I own two different types of these, so might as well try them if there’s time.

  • Fourth, if we still have time, I have a pair of specialized aero shoe covers I thought I would try over my lace shoes.

  • Lastly, if we still have time, I thought about switching my PowerTap P1 pedals for Speedplay, to see if the extra stack is really that big of a deal. This would be a PITA because we’d have to change cleats, lower the saddle, probably lower the handlebars. Possible aero penalty for P1s discussed here: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/?post=6143064

What I had intended to skip:

  • Clothing testing. I own the fast LG suit in XS, which is the right size for me. I had thought about trying an actual full sleeved cycling skinsuit as a comparison to the LG. If it were sufficiently faster maybe I could justify two wardrobe changes and enjoy some extra comfort on race day with a real chamois on the bike and regular run kit on the run. Thoughts?

  • Helmet testing. I don’t own an aero helmet yet. I’m flying to the session, and carrying multiple helmets with me seems like too big of a hassle. I was just going to get the LG or the Specialized helmet since I can fit a S in these brands, but would need a M in most others, including Giro. Is skipping testing of this a mistake relative to other things I planned to spend my time on?

2

I’d talk to ERO If I was you.

3

The one big advantage of ERO is that you are riding the bike, so position changes where you are really uncomfortable or have a difficult time handling the bike are pretty obvious. So, I would focus on position work first and foremost.

Some of the minor changes like lace covers and the difference between calf sleeves ware likely to be minor, so they will be more difficult to tease out differences from the noise. Just get the NoPinz sleeves and be done. I am not aware of any situations where they haven’t been faster than no sleeves.

Rather than start with only a BTA, decide how much fluid storage you really are going to need and work one or two combinations that will meet your needs.

Definitely test helmets. They are very individual and the differences can be really big.

4

I was going to do a part 2 and 3 to my wind tunnel experience. Part 1 is here and you can see the pattern we took.

Just some observations, although I went in with a specific plan, one thing I wish I would have differently was talk with my operators before hand. I think a 30 minute call would go a long way in to getting everyone on the same page. For me, I spent too much time testing helmets and that was a waste, but it is easy to say that looking back. In my experience, the people I worked with seemed more bent on helping the typical person through the process, instead of understanding some of my own specific requirements, and specifically when it comes to pro racing. I can understand that from their perspective, but they skipped a critical step, “understanding their audience, and listening to the customer.” This is the same peril I see with coaching. Too many coaches, only know how to coach one way and are not flexible enough to understand that different type of people require different kinds of training.

I don’t think this was helped because the time is so expensive. I think the Operator’s goal is to get the biggest reduction in drag for a sort of SHOCK VALUE, but they DON’T take into account what is sustainable, nor do they seem to understand that some times you test things just for the psychology of things. I did a poor job I guess of communicating that the END number wasn’t that important. It was the process, it was about trying things that were radical so I could go back home, play around with stuff, and come back some time. For me, I was most interested in trying the mantis position, and testing shoes. As you can see from my file, the last two items tested, they ended up being after thoughts.

I can understand their perspective, methodology and why they did things a certain way, but again, if my operators just understood it wasn’t about the numbers, “no really, it is NOT about the numbers”, then maybe the session would have went a different direction.

End takeaway. Communication is key.

5

The one big advantage of ERO is that you are riding the bike, so position changes where you are really uncomfortable or have a difficult time handling the bike are pretty obvious. So, I would focus on position work first and foremost.

Some of the minor changes like lace covers and the difference between calf sleeves ware likely to be minor, so they will be more difficult to tease out differences from the noise. Just get the NoPinz sleeves and be done. I am not aware of any situations where they haven’t been faster than no sleeves.

Rather than start with only a BTA, decide how much fluid storage you really are going to need and work one or two combinations that will meet your needs.

Definitely test helmets. They are very individual and the differences can be really big.

Thanks for the reply, super helpful. What kind of range are we talking about on helmets?

6

End takeaway. Communication is key.

Yes, thank you, I will do that 100%.

7

I’ve not done aero testing with Jim/ERO but have had several fit sessions. Xwhatever on calling and having a chat. He will certainly oblige. :). My sense is that you’ve got way too much going on and should concentrate on the low hanging fruit. You don’t have all day to be swapping pedals and such.

ETA Jim is definitely not an “it’s only about the numbers” guy. Far from it. If something doesn’t work or is not comfortable you gotta tell him and he’ll adjust for you. IMO he’d gladly give up 5 watts (just making up numbers) if it allows you to be comfortably in aero for 112 miles We’ve all done too many races passing folks sitting up on the bars of very expensive bikes. Fit is a waste of money if you can’t hold it

8

I’ve not done aero testing with Jim/ERO but have had several fit sessions. Xwhatever on calling and having a chat. He will certainly oblige. :). My sense is that you’ve got way too much going on and should concentrate on the low hanging fruit. You don’t have all day to be swapping pedals and such.

ETA Jim is definitely not an “it’s only about the numbers” guy. Far from it. If something doesn’t work or is not comfortable you gotta tell him and he’ll adjust for you. IMO he’d gladly give up 5 watts (just making up numbers) if it allows you to be comfortably in aero for 112 miles We’ve all done too many races passing folks sitting up on the bars of very expensive bikes. Fit is a waste of money if you can’t hold it

I have tested with Jim and I would certainly reach out to him. I am sure he would be able to give you good advice on how to prioritize your testing, based on his past experience. As some have mentioned, some of your options might be very small gains and Jim would have good insight. I saved the most Watts on different suits and helmets vs. all the other variables including the hydration options. He might have several different helmets on hand to test. I tested in a pair and was convenient that while one rode the other was able to make adjustments. Got 10 runs in during the allotted time.

9

As above, speaking with Jim is a good idea.

My advice (fwiw) test a few things enough to get reliable, believable data. If you test 20 different things once and then get back six months later start wondering “did I save two watts because I had these socks on, or because I moved my head a little differently from the run before?” then you didn’t get good data (speaking from experience)

With limited time, pick a few things that are low hanging fruit and work on that.
Don’t test helmets until you are done making position changes (if you make any) Helmet A might be awesome in Position A, but if you leave the track time in Position B there might be a better helmet.

John Cobb told me something to the effect of “You’re going to leave with more questions than answers” when I first went to the tunnel. He was right. Enjoy the experience and listen to the guys there who know what they are doing.

10

I was going to do a part 2 and 3 to my wind tunnel experience. Part 1 is here and you can see the pattern we took.

Just some observations, although I went in with a specific plan, one thing I wish I would have differently was talk with my operators before hand. I think a 30 minute call would go a long way in to getting everyone on the same page. For me, I spent too much time testing helmets and that was a waste, but it is easy to say that looking back. In my experience, the people I worked with seemed more bent on helping the typical person through the process, instead of understanding some of my own specific requirements, and specifically when it comes to pro racing. I can understand that from their perspective, but they skipped a critical step, “understanding their audience, and listening to the customer.” This is the same peril I see with coaching. Too many coaches, only know how to coach one way and are not flexible enough to understand that different type of people require different kinds of training.

I don’t think this was helped because the time is so expensive. I think the Operator’s goal is to get the biggest reduction in drag for a sort of SHOCK VALUE, but they DON’T take into account what is sustainable, nor do they seem to understand that some times you test things just for the psychology of things. I did a poor job I guess of communicating that the END number wasn’t that important. It was the process, it was about trying things that were radical so I could go back home, play around with stuff, and come back some time. For me, I was most interested in trying the mantis position, and testing shoes. As you can see from my file, the last two items tested, they ended up being after thoughts.

I can understand their perspective, methodology and why they did things a certain way, but again, if my operators just understood it wasn’t about the numbers, “no really, it is NOT about the numbers”, then maybe the session would have went a different direction.

End takeaway. Communication is key.

Most of your gripes are as much your fault as they are anybody else’s. That’s like blaming a coach for “training me into the ground.”

To the OP - personally I am not a big fan of testing “positional” changes while using expensive wind tunnel time. If you are scheduling a fit with Jim prior to testing, I would rely on his knowledge and expertise to help guide your fit process as it relates to the context of your racing desires. If you are not, then I would suggest doing that. In a velodrome environment, testing positional stuff is likely more difficult to adequately control than in a wind tunnel. Simply because you are actually RIDING the bike. So small stuff like arm pad width and forearm angle are easy. Head position you don’t even really need to test because lower is better. I would test equipment/accessories/apparel.

11

To the OP - personally I am not a big fan of testing “positional” changes while using expensive wind tunnel time. If you are scheduling a fit with Jim prior to testing, I would rely on his knowledge and expertise to help guide your fit process as it relates to the context of your racing desires. If you are not, then I would suggest doing that. In a velodrome environment, testing positional stuff is likely more difficult to adequately control than in a wind tunnel. Simply because you are actually RIDING the bike. So small stuff like arm pad width and forearm angle are easy. Head position you don’t even really need to test because lower is better. I would test equipment/accessories/apparel.

Thanks again all for the responses. Sounds like foremost I need to pair down my wish list and focus on the bigger things. I’m not sure if Jim is involved in this session, I am working with Missy. I’m certain to go through this with her as well, but wondered what ideas this crew has. The session I booked does have a fit prior to the aero testing time. I have been professionally fit already, and really do like my position from a comfort standpoint, so am going to guess we will work on refinement of the position rather than wholesale changes.

I was told that I need to bring anything I wanted to test, so I don’t think they are going to have a bunch of helmets for me to try. Sounds like I should at least try two. I was thinking two of Specialized, LG, or POC Cerebel. Any votes?

12

I was going to do a part 2 and 3 to my wind tunnel experience. Part 1 is here and you can see the pattern we took.

Just some observations, although I went in with a specific plan, one thing I wish I would have differently was talk with my operators before hand. I think a 30 minute call would go a long way in to getting everyone on the same page. For me, I spent too much time testing helmets and that was a waste, but it is easy to say that looking back. In my experience, the people I worked with seemed more bent on helping the typical person through the process, instead of understanding some of my own specific requirements, and specifically when it comes to pro racing. I can understand that from their perspective, but they skipped a critical step, “understanding their audience, and listening to the customer.” This is the same peril I see with coaching. Too many coaches, only know how to coach one way and are not flexible enough to understand that different type of people require different kinds of training.

I don’t think this was helped because the time is so expensive. I think the Operator’s goal is to get the biggest reduction in drag for a sort of SHOCK VALUE, but they DON’T take into account what is sustainable, nor do they seem to understand that some times you test things just for the psychology of things.** I did a poor job I guess of communicating that the END number wasn’t that important.** It was the process, it was about trying things that were radical so I could go back home, play around with stuff, and come back some time. For me, I was most interested in trying the mantis position, and testing shoes. As you can see from my file, the last two items tested, they ended up being after thoughts.

I can understand their perspective, methodology and why they did things a certain way, but again, if my operators just understood it wasn’t about the numbers, “no really, it is NOT about the numbers”, then maybe the session would have went a different direction.

End takeaway. Communication is key.

Most of your gripes are as much your fault as they are anybody else’s. That’s like blaming a coach for “training me into the ground.”

To the OP - personally I am not a big fan of testing “positional” changes while using expensive wind tunnel time. If you are scheduling a fit with Jim prior to testing, I would rely on his knowledge and expertise to help guide your fit process as it relates to the context of your racing desires. If you are not, then I would suggest doing that. In a velodrome environment, testing positional stuff is likely more difficult to adequately control than in a wind tunnel. Simply because you are actually RIDING the bike. So small stuff like arm pad width and forearm angle are easy. Head position you don’t even really need to test because lower is better. I would test equipment/accessories/apparel.

Do the bolded statements reflect my mistakes or am I making excuses? I am trying to put the responsibility on myself. Based on some other people I talked to, they also have had similar experiences and feedback, so although I am putting this on me, I think there is room from improvement from operators too.

I think you were a tunnel operator yourself, correct me if I am wrong, don’t you think it would be helpful to have everyone watch a quick 10 minute video about a bunch of little details that are all very important. Like for instance, the importance of keeping as still as possible? Why do it in the tunnel when the time is ticking?

13

I’m doing IMLP next summer, I ride a Dimond.

Ok, so whatever position/equipment you end up with will need to be sustainable for at least 5 hours. Maybe 6 hours.

  • Obviously, position testing will be the majority of the time/effort

The efficiency of this goal really depends on what your starting point is. If you want the fastest position possible, that could be easy if you go in with a really fast position (that happened to me in my first testing session). However, my position was not sustainable for the length race I had at the end of the year (112mi), but was fine for most of my racing (56mi).

If you are happy with your current position in terms of comfort/sustainability and watts:mph ratio, then I wouldn’t do more than a few position runs. It’s better to establish a really good baseline that’s repeatable than to fart around with big positional changes. In my opinion.

  • Second, I want to test various hydration options with the goal of getting the fastest two bottle configuration (or three bottle configuration if that turns out faster somehow). I plan to get a Dimond Marquise before race day, so am not too concerned with food storage or flat kit placement. Baseline would just be a plain BTA bottle. Here was what I planned to test:

a. Whether a double BTA bottle setup like this works for me: forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=3731
b. how (a) and baseline compare to a profile fc25
c. Whether a plain rear-mounted bottle makes me faster
d. How that compares to the x-lab aero pouch (http://www.xlab-usa.com/aero-pouch-300.html)
e. if the aerodrink works best AND a rear bottle is a penalty, then I might try a Jesse Thomas type setup: http://www.triathlete.com/...mond-marquise_294207

This represents a significant time investment. I mean your spectrum from best to worst among these options might be 8-10 watts and yet you’re going to need at least 10 runs to really actually answer any of those questions you are asking yourself. I’d say pick what you think would be the most useable and potentially fastest using good sense and logic and test that. Or don’t test it at all. A horizontal BTA bottle is (at best) a slight improvement over no bottle at all and (at worst) slightly neutral. A BTS bottle is at best neutral and at worst very slightly negative at low yaw and maybe mildly positive at higher yaw.

I think spending this much effort testing hydration setups is a waste of your time and/or money.

Personally, I think this is a waste of time. But I think calf sleeves are a waste of time in general, so devoting 2-4 runs to this seems ludicrous.

  • Fourth, if we still have time, I have a pair of specialized aero shoe covers I thought I would try over my lace shoes.

Maybe, MAYBE worth it if you learn how to install them extremely fast. But doubtful.

  • Lastly, if we still have time, I thought about switching my PowerTap P1 pedals for Speedplay, to see if the extra stack is really that big of a deal. This would be a PITA because we’d have to change cleats, lower the saddle, probably lower the handlebars. Possible aero penalty for P1s discussed here: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/?post=6143064

I think testing this is a complete waste of time

What I had intended to skip:

  • Clothing testing. I own the fast LG suit in XS, which is the right size for me. I had thought about trying an actual full sleeved cycling skinsuit as a comparison to the LG. If it were sufficiently faster maybe I could justify two wardrobe changes and enjoy some extra comfort on race day with a real chamois on the bike and regular run kit on the run. Thoughts?

  • Helmet testing. I don’t own an aero helmet yet. I’m flying to the session, and carrying multiple helmets with me seems like too big of a hassle. I was just going to get the LG or the Specialized helmet since I can fit a S in these brands, but would need a M in most others, including Giro. Is skipping testing of this a mistake relative to other things I planned to spend my time on?

I think those two things are the most important.

14

What I had intended to skip:

  • Clothing testing. I own the fast LG suit in XS, which is the right size for me. I had thought about trying an actual full sleeved cycling skinsuit as a comparison to the LG. If it were sufficiently faster maybe I could justify two wardrobe changes and enjoy some extra comfort on race day with a real chamois on the bike and regular run kit on the run. Thoughts?

  • Helmet testing. I don’t own an aero helmet yet. I’m flying to the session, and carrying multiple helmets with me seems like too big of a hassle. I was just going to get the LG or the Specialized helmet since I can fit a S in these brands, but would need a M in most others, including Giro. Is skipping testing of this a mistake relative to other things I planned to spend my time on?

I think those two things are the most important.

And I bet on discussion ERO agrees

15

Although I would add to your apparel testing question’s answer, that I HIGHLY doubt a full fledged TT skinsuit is going to be worth enough to justify squeezing into it in T1. The thought of putting on my TT skinsuit in T1 for an Ironman is so hilarious that I am actually laughing out loud at the image. If you can get your TT skinsuit on your wet body easily then you don’t have the right TT skinsuit.

16

Although I would add to your apparel testing question’s answer, that I HIGHLY doubt a full fledged TT skinsuit is going to be worth enough to justify squeezing into it in T1. The thought of putting on my TT skinsuit in T1 for an Ironman is so hilarious that I am actually laughing out loud at the image. If you can get your TT skinsuit on your wet body easily then you don’t have the right TT skinsuit.

Thank you for the advice. I’ll reduce the time spent on the hydration questions. I guess I just assumed given this area hits the wind first it would be more important than you make it sound. I’ll cut out the rear bottle altogether, and just test single BTA vs the Tollakson double BTA vs Profile FC25.

I’ll work on the helmet thing as well. Found a P-09 on ebay for $100 (new even!). Will try and find a couple others. Still looking for smart suggestions here.

What alternatives would you suggest for the suit? Seems like LG is the most beloved here, and I already have it. Pearl Izumi and Castelli don’t make XS, and I can’t find the Pearl Izumi in S. The Castelli is available in S. Just seems kind of pricey. If I think there is a ~15% chance it saves me more than 5W, then I just spent $300 per W to find out. I’m obviously not on a low budget, but still . . .

Can you elaborate on why you think the powertap vs speedplay is a waste of time? You find the idea that dropping everything down a ~cm and moving to the speedplay aero pedals is not likely to make gains? I guess aerodynamics is not very intuitive, but compared to switching around amongst already fast triathlon suits, this sounds much more promising to me.

17

The one big advantage of ERO is that you are riding the bike, so position changes where you are really uncomfortable or have a difficult time handling the bike are pretty obvious. So, I would focus on position work first and foremost.

Some of the minor changes like lace covers and the difference between calf sleeves ware likely to be minor, so they will be more difficult to tease out differences from the noise. Just get the NoPinz sleeves and be done. I am not aware of any situations where they haven’t been faster than no sleeves.

Rather than start with only a BTA, decide how much fluid storage you really are going to need and work one or two combinations that will meet your needs.

Definitely test helmets. They are very individual and the differences can be really big.

Thanks for the reply, super helpful. What kind of range are we talking about on helmets?

During my first WT session, I tested 3 or 4 aero helmets and I think the best helmet was 8-9 watts faster. Last time I tested my old Selector was 3-4 watts faster than either a Kask or Lazer. The trick with helmets is that what looks fastest might not be. One of the people I went with last time looked great with the P-09, but it was really slow on him.

18

Thomas - since you appeared to have spent a lot of time thinking about the Giro Aerohead (just read your blog post), would you try it for testing if I had to take the visor off? I have to wear prescription sunglasses, a visor isn’t going to work for me. Thanks!

19

Thomas - since you appeared to have spent a lot of time thinking about the Giro Aerohead (just read your blog post), would you try it for testing if I had to take the visor off? I have to wear prescription sunglasses, a visor isn’t going to work for me. Thanks!

This helmet seems like a helmet that was totally designed around the shield. It looks so weird in fact without the shield. Not to say it isn’t worth testing, but if you see the helmet without the visor on I think you will see what I mean. I would be very surprised if it tested fast without the shield. I will also say this shield has a really weird curve to it as well. It may seem a little strange at first, but it was never a problem once I used it. I would think ERO would know immediately if it is even worth testing it as it was developed in conjunction with ERO. And yes, I would be curious of the result as well.

20

Are you testing in Milton? The only things that I will add are that they can release contact information of others, that way you can possibly share/try others helmets equipment etc. We did this at UW a few years ago and it didn’t work for me (very large head) but worked well for others.

The other option which was available to us was the ability to sit in on others sessions, as long as the testing athlete agreed and you didn’t share data. I watched a couple of sessions after I tested for the first time and had a few “oh shit” moments.

Basically first time you will likely learn a lot but *might * walk away with a few more questions than answers. If you are allowed to stand by and see the test before you test you may choose to structure your test differently.

My 2c