Help me choose a new bike. Retul Measurements provided

My wonderful husband has said that I can get a new bike. I’m still wondering what new “toy” he has planned for himself. Anyway, I want to make sure that this time the bike is chosen based on fit. Hopefully someone can tell me which bikes would be best to look at based on my measurements. I like the look of the Shiv. While I like my Cervelo it seems like it may be time to try something different.

Retul Fit 5/6/2013

This bike fit was 2 months after knee surgery. This position was set up to accommodate for a less aggressive position to return to riding during recovery. I had the bike refit a few months ago back closer to the pre-surgery position. But I don’t have the current measurements right now. We also changed out the saddle and bars since the fitting in May. Fitter seems to think that I need a larger frame. Fitter sells custom bicycles. While those bike are nice I really don’t think I need or want a custom bike.

Do I need to have another Retul fit or need to use the updated measurements to help determine which new bikes to consider?
Or will these numbers give a general guideline of a starting point?

Female- 5’8, all legs/short torso, 127 lbs (Don’t know if this matters or not)
Cervelo P2C
Size 51
Stem +10x100
Spacer Stack 45 ( We took out a few spacers during the last fit)
Crank Length 165
Pedals - Look
Saddle - Cobb

Saddle Height 737
Saddle Setback- 36 mm
Arm Pad Stack BB 630 mm
Saddle Angle 0 deg
Eff. Seat Tube Angle 82 deg
Grip Angle 49 deg
Grip Width 87 mm
Frame Stack 489 mm
Frame Reach 401 mm
Handlebar Reach 436 mm
Handle Bar Drop -124 mm
Arm Pad Reach 377 mm
Arm Pad Drop - 101 mm
Arm Pad Reach BB 412 mm
Grip Reach 669 mm
Grip Drop -11 mm
Arm Pad to Grip Reach 292 mm
BB to Grip Reach 704 mm
Arm Pad Width 230 mm
Handle Bar Stack 594 mm
Handle Bar Reach 471 mm

Quick run through of some options
http://i39.tinypic.com/30vgp00.png
New P3 or P2 fit nicely now with a bit of room to move if you need to modify. Likewise the Felt B2

Interesting that the Shiv M was the better fit based on measurements. The medium felt almost too big on stand over height.

The cervelo size 54 referenced in the chart, is that classic or new p3?

i would be happy to help you find a new bike. but i’m going to give you a mild spanking first. not too hard. but, publicly. for all to see. as continuing education for everybody. here goes.

you do not have “retul measurements.” there’s not a single metric you listed that retul discovered, invented, developed. this is not to denigrate retul, which does a fine job at what it does. but these are not retul measurements. most of these metrics are going to come to you via a F.I.S.T. fit. and a GURU fit. but they are also not F.I.S.T. or GURU measurements. well, stack and reach are, and i suspect that most of the metics you list were first used in fit systems by us (F.I.S.T.). but i don’t claim them. they are just fit coordinates.

RETUL offers the following: a fit bike, a motion capture system, a school for fitters, and some software to help integrate it all.
GURU offers the following: a fit bike, a motion capture system, a school for fitters, and some software to help integrate it all.
Trek PrecisionFit offers the following: a fit bike, a motion capture system, a school for fitters, and some software to help integrate it all.
Shimano offers the following: a fit bike, a motion capture system, a school for fitters, and some software to help integrate it all.

the only proprietary brand here worth speaking of is the fitter. the fitter is the brand. the “brand” is either ready or unready to provide a true, quality dynamic fit depending on whether he has a fit bike. that fit bike can be an exit cycling bike, guru bike, retul bike, or purely custom bike. or shimano fit bike, altho i think those are not yet shipping. a “dynamic” fit (and a “retul fit” is a dynamic fit) is a fit that is executed while pedaling aboard a bike, so if that bike does not adjust quickly, and produce metrics, etc., it’s like saying you got a “dynamic” running shoe fitting, but were not allowed to do anything but stand still during the “dynamic” process. so, was your fit session executed aboard a fit bike? if not, then i question the validity of the output.

that said, the metrics you list are a top notch set. your fitter gave you top cabin metrics. rather than a set of retul metrics that are specific to retul’s motion capture system (it’s own version of body angles), which you can do absolutely nothing with, your fitter gave you metrics that you can actually use. that’s very helpful and good of your fitter to do, as far as that goes.

but let’s drill down on this. you said that you “took out a few spacers during the last fit.” i take that to mean this fit was executed on your existing bike, aboard a trainer, so, you got off the bike, sat around for 10 minutes while the spacers were taken out, got back on, and tried it. that’s a time interval that moves fro 10 minutes to 10 seconds (or fewer) with a proper fit bike.

now, you might say, “so what? how does that affect the quality of the end metrics?” it would not if the fit is being driven strictly by retul’s body angles. however, those angles sit inside a range. what determines where in the range? usually, it’s you. and it’s hard to know what you like better between one “trial” or “fit” and another if you have to wait minutes and minutes between each adjustment of the bike. this is why no true professional fitter using these newer post-F.I.S.T. protocols are without a fit bike. not everybody who’s got a fit bike is an experienced, serious, professional bike fitter. but every serious, professional bike fitter has a fit bike (or is soon to get one). it’s like hiring a professional wheel builder who has no truing stand. maybe he can build great custom wheels. but why would he not have a truing stand?

that mild spanking aside, here’s my concern: Saddle Setback- 36mm on a cobb saddle. unless it’s a new JOF cobb saddle, i question that metric. if that is truly where you want to sit, fine. if not, then that very choice, right there, reverberates through the entire fit, and outputs a bike wildly different than a bike you would have chosen had that metric been +10 or +15, or even more, which is more typical of a tri bike position of someone your height with a v flow max or plus. so, if that -36 is really, in my nomenclature, a +36, then we’re in business. and i can find that out pretty quickly just by reconstructing this position on one of my fit bikes and seeing if the metrics match.

but first, why don’t you tell me what cobb saddle it was?

RETUL offers the following: a fit bike, a motion capture system, a school for fitters, and some software to help integrate it all.
GURU offers the following: a fit bike, a motion capture system, a school for fitters, and some software to help integrate it all.
Trek PrecisionFit offers the following: a fit bike, a motion capture system, a school for fitters, and some software to help integrate it all.
Shimano offers the following: a fit bike, a motion capture system, a school for fitters, and some software to help integrate it all.

as a BG level 2 and SICI bicycle fitter you are my new hero.

Totally agree we need to know what saddle you have.

Those measurements were with a Cobb V Flo Max.
New saddle is a Cobb JOF.
Fitting on 5/16 was Retul. The last adjustment was not. We just moved things around.

Thanks for the input. I don’t mind the mild “spanking” if in the end the bike is right. As you can probably tell I’m a bit clueless about the whole process. Which is why I thought the slowtwitch masters could help me out.

“Those measurements were with a Cobb V Flo Max. New saddle is a Cobb JOF. Fitting on 5/16 was Retul. The last adjustment was not. We just moved things around.”

you’re probably going to sit aboard a JOF pretty differently than you sit aboard a Max. when you say, “Fitting on 5/16 was Retul”, again, was this aboard a fit bike? do you know what i mean by a fit bike? it might be that you live in an area where there are no fit bikes, so, you don’t know what i’m talking about. here’s a whole series on fit bikes. did you sit aboard any of these bikes in this series during your initial fit process?

now, let’s talk about this. there’s another mild spanking coming. (won’t hurt too much.) if you have a blood clot, and your doctor prescribes a regimen of cumoudin, and you ask us all on the forum whether, now, your blood clot having been dissolved, you should plan your life for the next few years around taking that prescription for coumadin, we’d all ask you why you think you should take an aggressive dose of an aggressive blood thinner since you have no blood clot anymore. would we not?

i therefore wonder why we’re using a set of fit coordinates to prescribe a bike for you, such coordinates having been generated for you specifically during a time of rehabilitation from an injury, admittedly set up to coddle that injury. do you still have that injury? if you don’t, why do you want a bike that matches a set of fit coordinates generated specifically for that position?

so, yes, you need another fit. you don’t need another retul fit. you need a fit, by a competent, experienced fitter, aboard one of the fit bikes that is listed in that series to which i pointed. maybe that is your fitter. i hope it is your fitter. you need that fit using the JOF. then generate a set of fit coordinates, and from those coordinates we’ll choose your bike.

all that said, your coordinates were not all that laid back. i think your armrest elevation was something more than 10cm and that’s not that wimpy for somebody 5’8" tall. but, do you see that if you move the saddle forward or, even if you don’t, if you place the JOF in that same spot as the Max your hips are going to move way forward, which will probably require some bit of more armrest drop, and that means the frame underneath it all will require quite a bit more reach, and some degree of less stack? this is why we can’t prescribe a bike for a fit that accommodates an injury. it’s like buying a hat based on a skull size taken halfway through brain surgery, with the top of your cranium removed. better if we wait until the surgeon sticks your head back on and then we take the measurement for your new hat.

Thanks for all of your help. I didn’t think those measurements would work but it never hurts to ask. Knee is fully recovered from surgery for a torn lateral meniscus.
I’ve contacted the fitter and set up an appointment next week for a fit on a Fit bike.
Is there anything else that I need to know or consider before continuing with this process?

Pick out which saddle and bars you want to use on your new bike and have the fitter use them on the fit bike.

Okay here are the new measurements. We used the bars and saddle that will be on the bike. It was a late evening so I don’t have the recommendations from the fitter yet. Recommendations?

Stem -10X100
Spacer Stack 10
Crank Length 165
Pedals Shimano DA
Saddle- Cobb jof
Bars - Vision

Saddle Height 761 mm
Saddle Setback 44 mm
Arm Pad Stack BB 615 mm
Saddle Angle -4 deg
Eff. Seat Tube Angle 83 deg
Grip Angle 39 deg
Grip Width 93 mm
Frame Stack 0 mm
Frame Reach 0 mm
Handlebar Reach 447 mm
Handlebar Drop -186
Arm Pad Reach 435 mm
Arm Pad Drop -141
Arm Pad Reach BB 479
Grip Reach 716 mm
Grip Drop -133
Arm Pad to Grip Reach 281 mm
BB to Grip Reach 760 mm
Arm Pad Width 226 mm
Handle Bar Stack 554 mm
Handle Bar Reach 491 mm

Oops- The frame reach and stack measurements are missing. It was late when we finished the fitting. I’ll call the fitter and get the numbers.

Reach 422.54
Stack 537.2
.