Help me bring my 70.3 from 5:20 to 5 (or below!)

Triathlon Forum
1

I did my first 70.3 the other week in 5:20. It went pretty much as planned, but now that the dust has settled I’m looking to how I can improve for next year. I have decided to give that same race another go, as the distance was fun, the training was challenging but not life consuming, and I would like to better my time. Here’s my thought process on how to go about it, please feel free to add pointers or critique.

Swim: Change nothing. I think it’s already where it needs to be to get to 5 hours. I swim twice a week with a masters group, generally race around 1:30-1:35. My last 70.3 swim was 29:xx. I figure another winter with this group and I’ll consistently be closer to the 1:30 mark then the 1:35…

Bike: This is where the bulk of the work will be. I went from 4th fastest swim in my AG to the 4th SLOWEST bike in just under 3 hours. I ride a road bike (Kestrel Talon) and the only speed I plan on buying is in a bike fitting and outfitting it as TT bike with aero bars and proper positioning. I also plan on buying a trainer this winter, as I didn’t start riding this spring until late March. Leading up to my 70.3 I rode 1000 km, mostly as a long ride on saturday (70 - 120k) and one shorter ride during the week. So not a ton of volume, and no real specific work, I was generally just getting out and riding without purpose. I figure a couple trainer sessions a week during the winter will help a lot in this department. I would like to get my bike to 2:30-2:40. Maybe that’s too ambitious for one season’s improvement with limited training time?

Run: Change little. My stand alone times aren’t bad (for me), but I had trouble putting down a good run during my race, and I attribute that again to my crappy riding. I was just too tired in the legs to really push the run and not fall in to shuffle mode, and I think staying the course with my running and putting the big push on my cycling will help my run along a bit anyways.

So what do you think? Sound feasible? Should I just get the trainer, some suffer fest dvds and go to it this winter and see what happens?

2

Like you said, the main work will be on the bike and then your run will improve too. I think you don’t need to change much about swim and run training. If you don’t bike during the winter, do more run sessions. And when you start with biking, be consistent. I would add one more bike ride during the week. Keep the long ride, and add one speed and maybe one hill ride. Aero bars and proper fitting also helps a lot.

3

There is quite a lot of open ended stuff here and I am not an expert, but I’ll give it a go.

  1. Your swim is great if you were 4th fastest AG. I wish I could look at those times and only swim twice a week. Keep that up.

2.IMO biking without a purpose is important at points in your training, but can’t be a staple. If you truly wish a 5 hour finish you are going to need to bike with a purpose. Specifically that purpose is a 2:40 split. Not sure of the course or conditions or what your ability is. To get that you will need to do some intervals and tempo work at specific points in your training cycle. Simply watching a Sufferfest video and trying to keep up may not be helpful to where you want to go. Doing some 2 hour rides with a specific goal and pace can be very helpful. Personally I believe a power meter is critical in getting your bike dialed in. Just as critical is having someone who can give you some workouts that go with that PM. Those two things aren’t cheap though.

  1. Bricks are important for your run. They don’t have to be long, but they can teach your body to adapt. You have approximately 1:50 to finish your run and still hit 5 hours. That’s somewhere in the 8:30 pace range? Not unreachable for most people, however, here is where we go back to bike fitness. If you spend it all on the bike you won’t be able to run. Bike and run fitness are uniquely linked.

  2. Of course I did not really include transitions which can be quite critical when you don’t have a lot of wiggle room. Practice them. Get to know what times to expect. Work on cutting that time.

chris

4

Yup, bike, bike bike… I got my 70.3 down from 5:10 to 4:53, mainly through dropping my bike split from 2:55 to sub-2:40. Your swim will be fine and twice a week masters will suffice to keep it where it is. You may be able to find some stroke improvements to drop another minute or two, if you have the patience. My swim is similar to yours and I have been trying to improve my stroke to drop a couple more minutes, but changing that muscle memory is so hard! On the bike I would do more of everything…threshold work, distance, single leg drills. A coach or a more structured plan will help too, as will riding with group rides with people faster than you. Good luck and enjoy the journey!

5

I call BS on your acceptance of your run times. Doing a sub 30:00 swim and a 3:00 bike on a 5:20:00 HIM leaves a lot of time to be saved from putting in a better run. Yes, your bike is probably the low hanging fruit here, but don’t neglect the weekly run mileage.

6

Agree with this ^^^^^

Riding does not improve running. Running improves running. Better bike fitness may be your key to running closer to your open times, but racing a 5:20 with a good swim and a 3:00 bike indicates that (sorry to be frank) your running is not very good.

Bike gains will come faster (and easier) than run gains because you can pour on a lot more work with less stress. However, if you want to get below 5:00, some combination of cycling improvement and running improvement is the most direct path.

7

Consistent training by itself between now and a race in 2013 will bring huge gains. If you keep up your same level of training, week in - week out, between now and then, you’re likely to see some good gains.

That being said, some small tweaks to your training will really help. The trainer can be a big help, especially if you’re crunched on training time. Focused quality bike sessions during the week can really raise your power output. Overall volume doesn’t need to be high if you’re making good use of the time that you do spend on the bike. I do 3-4 bike sessions a week, and none of them are easy.

Don’t ignore your run training. Fit in an extra run or two each week, easy paced, to get some more frequency.

It’s hard to give good advice without a detailed breakdown of what you’re currenlty doing and without much other context, but I would think that 20 minutes is easily obtainable if you want it.

8

I did 2:25 on a Talon with clamp-on aerobars so it is definitely doable. I mostly ride without a purpose, but every ride is aero and there is never any drafting. Also most rides are in tougher than race conditions – wind and hills. I never stop to feed or drink. Some people take rest stops on 60 mile rides or at least they only drink at stoplights. Make sure you eat and drink on the move.

I dream of swimming 29:xx.

For me the run is all about mile-at-a-time. Never walk outside aid stations and at least walk through the aid stations.

Look at your transitions. Make sure you are in the top-3rd otherwise stop the picnic lunch and move it.

9
  1. Bricks are important for your run. They don’t have to be long, but they can teach your body to adapt. You have approximately 1:50 to finish your run and still hit 5 hours. That’s somewhere in the 8:30 pace range? Not unreachable for most people, however, here is where we go back to bike fitness. If you spend it all on the bike you won’t be able to run. Bike and run fitness are uniquely linked.

For sprint and oly distance races I might agree with you… not so much for HIM or IM distance. I feel that brick workouts are less important the longer distance the race.

10

Well, like I said I did have a shitty run during my race, but I believe that was more due to my biking (and I screwed the pooch on my hydration on the bike - it was cool during the bike and I didn’t drink nearly enough, the run heated up quickly and dramatically and I was dehydrated pretty much from the get go, and couldn’t catch up - lesson learned. The critical moment was when I was passing the last aid station with 23k to go and I made the split decision to not bother picking up as I was “feeling good right then” and didn’t want to get a sloshy stomach going from drinking too much. Bad call.) I couldn’t run hard at all during the race, and to be honest was barely even sore (at least in the legs) the next day.

My sprint and oly splits this season were 21:xx and 45:xx on a tough course, and my 70.3 run was 1:48 (Slightly short course too at 20k). My last open half (last October) was 1:38, and with the pace I “ran” during my race I would have done a half in 1:53-1:54. So no, I was not happy with my race pace, but I believe that with a smarter race and better bike fitness that run time would have been lower without having to change much in my running.

11

I just did my first HIM on Sunday and we posted similar times, but from completely different approaches. My swim time was 6’+ longer than you, but my bike was over 30’ shorter than you.

Obviously I am still figuring out my own time / race effort issues, but I know for me it is about the run. I have been fighting numerous running issues (mostly IT band issues) which have limited my ability to build the base endurance for the run. Net result - I logged ~2 hrs for my run. Had I hit my goal of 8:30 min / mile, I would have been close to my 5 hour goal. But I knew coming into the race that my recent flare-ups of my IT issues was gonna make that near-impossible (2 complete weeks w/ no running in the month leading up to the race).

That said, you have the same problem re: the bike. You are not putting in anywhere near the amount of time and miles in to build the base required for a 5 hour race, let alone one where you need to have some speed in order to crack 5 hours. 2 rides / week just won’t cut it, especially as it sounds like you are relatively new to the cycling end. You need to be on your bike at least 3 days a week, if not more. I was doing 3-4 days a week, but also coming form 25 years on the road so I had a solid foundation to draw on. Doing one ride of 70-120K and a shorter ride during the week is simply not going to get you to where you want / need to be.

I would recommend using the off-season for a cycling specific block. get the trainer ASAP so you can ride when it is cold / crappy out…but you gotta build that base for the bike leg.

Me, I’ll be starting the Barry P plan shortly to see if I can take my own advice, but apply it to my pathetic run efforts. :wink:

12

A few questions:

Height and weightHow much run mileage year to date and in the past 5 years or so? What is your open 5K or preferably 10K pace?Bike mileage to date seems low but did I miss something…even by tripling your mileage just doing easy stuff, you can jackl up your FTP. You can improve your FTP doing a ton of miles at RAAM pace or less miles at high intensity. How much time do you have available for this? What are your watts per kilo right now?Your swim speed indicates the underlying engine is good, you might just be heavy and lack miles, but if you answer the above, we’ll have a better indication.

13

A few questions:

Height and weightHow much run mileage year to date and in the past 5 years or so? What is your open 5K or preferably 10K pace?Bike mileage to date seems low but did I miss something…even by tripling your mileage just doing easy stuff, you can jackl up your FTP. You can improve your FTP doing a ton of miles at RAAM pace or less miles at high intensity. How much time do you have available for this? What are your watts per kilo right now?Your swim speed indicates the underlying engine is good, you might just be heavy and lack miles, but if you answer the above, we’ll have a better indication.

-I’m 6’1", 185-195lbs, but not carrying a lot of fat on me, I’m actually pretty lean (maybe not compared to tri geek standards). I should also note I don’t really want to get down to 160-170. I like having a bit of muscle mass and do weights regularly in the winter. I also have a physical job as a carpenter, so it helps to keep my strength up. This shouldn’t really hold me back either, as I saw a lot of people with my build or bigger flying past me on the bike!

-This is my first season back in triathlon in 6 years or so, and the previous 3 summers have been spent preparing for a half marathon in early October as my focus. So I have been typically running 3-4 times per week, usually with a running group so we have been doing structured work (long run on the weekend, track work, hills etc). I’m unsure of total mileage. I haven’t run an open 5 or 10k in ages, but my 10k PB was 38:xx, but that was way too long ago to be relavent.

  • watts/kilo? I have no idea. I don’t even own a basic bike computer, HRM, or sports watch. I like it that way. The day I get too techy about training is the day I find something else to do for fun. I know it can be a great tool to use, but I don’t feel as though it is necessary. My data analysis consists of logging my routes and mileage on strava and comparing/competing with my buddies =).
14

I just did my first HIM on Sunday and we posted similar times, but from completely different approaches. My swim time was 6’+ longer than you, but my bike was over 30’ shorter than you.

You and I need to find a runner and team up for a relay my friend!

15

Ok, with all your caveats I’ll throw this recommendation out: Run more often and practice biking harder. Do that for a while and you’ll probably hit your goals.

16

I just did my first HIM on Sunday and we posted similar times, but from completely different approaches. My swim time was 6’+ longer than you, but my bike was over 30’ shorter than you.

You and I need to find a runner and team up for a relay my friend!

Ain’t that the truth…

:wink:

18

Agree with this ^^^^^

Riding does not improve running. Running improves running. Better bike fitness may be your key to running closer to your open times, but racing a 5:20 with a good swim and a 3:00 bike indicates that (sorry to be frank) your running is not very good.

Bike gains will come faster (and easier) than run gains because you can pour on a lot more work with less stress. However, if you want to get below 5:00, some combination of cycling improvement and running improvement is the most direct path.

If stand alone half marathon time is a lot faster then half IM run time, usually a) you ride your bike to aggressive or b) you have a problem with your bike fitness. I know people, who can run half marathon 1h30 or better and hardly go half IM run under 2h and still think, that will improve half IM run time with run interval training. But I agree, If you want to run fast, you have to train fast.

19

I’ll echo what kdw said - perhaps rather than thinking about how to do more bike AND run training all at the same time, you should consider doing a bike focus, and then maybe a run focus block instead.
I’d do the bike focus NOW, since running lots when it’s hot/humid out kinda blows. And it’s your biggest limiter.
Maybe a run block during the winter, when outdoor riding is more problematic.

IF I could swim <30 on 2 swims a week, I’d be in HEAVEN.
OK - IF I could swim <30 period, I’d be destined for Hell, since it would require my selling my soul to the devil to accomplish that feat.

Bike fitness/speed is the low-hanging fruit. 2x a week is barely maintenance, much less going to allow for improvement.
That being said, it’s greatly more important what you do during your rides, than simply “just ride more”.

A 2-3 hour ride should be at, or a little above, HIM bike race intensity. And you really don’t need to be riding longer than 3-ish hours if you’re sticking w/ HIM or below as your race distance(s). No noodling along, no filler.
Err on the side of riding too hard - worst case, you blow up and limp home. This is what cell phones are for. :wink:
Try for another 2 rides during the week, these can be shorter, and should be harder. Whether you do formal intervals (2x20, etc), or just TT a local hillclimb, or TT from your house, turn around, ride hard home, whatever.
Strava can be a good resource to find local climbs, segments, etc that you can push yourself on.

Get a good Tri/TT fit for your bike. YOU are the least aero thing on the bike - getting that sorted out provides a nice improvement in speed.
Make sure you have at least the aero basics covered: aero front wheel, disk or disk cover for rear wheel, aero helmet, fast tires, latex tubes. None of this stuff has to be overly spendy.

I’ve had my best run results from consistency and frequency - 5-6 days a week is what works best for me.
I’ve done 7, and I’ve even done more than 7 runs a week (doubles, or R/B/R bricks), but keep coming back to 5-6 seeming to be the “right” amount of frequency.
A L run (say, 12-16m), a “medium” run (8-10m), and several filler runs (4-6m, can be as brick off the bike), and done.

Good luck!

20

A few questions:

Height and weightHow much run mileage year to date and in the past 5 years or so? What is your open 5K or preferably 10K pace?Bike mileage to date seems low but did I miss something…even by tripling your mileage just doing easy stuff, you can jackl up your FTP. You can improve your FTP doing a ton of miles at RAAM pace or less miles at high intensity. How much time do you have available for this? What are your watts per kilo right now?Your swim speed indicates the underlying engine is good, you might just be heavy and lack miles, but if you answer the above, we’ll have a better indication.

-I’m 6’1", 185-195lbs, but not carrying a lot of fat on me, I’m actually pretty lean (maybe not compared to tri geek standards). I should also note I don’t really want to get down to 160-170. I like having a bit of muscle mass and do weights regularly in the winter. I also have a physical job as a carpenter, so it helps to keep my strength up. This shouldn’t really hold me back either, as I saw a lot of people with my build or bigger flying past me on the bike!

-This is my first season back in triathlon in 6 years or so, and the previous 3 summers have been spent preparing for a half marathon in early October as my focus. So I have been typically running 3-4 times per week, usually with a running group so we have been doing structured work (long run on the weekend, track work, hills etc). I’m unsure of total mileage. I haven’t run an open 5 or 10k in ages, but my 10k PB was 38:xx, but that was way too long ago to be relavent.

  • watts/kilo? I have no idea. I don’t even own a basic bike computer, HRM, or sports watch. I like it that way. The day I get too techy about training is the day I find something else to do for fun. I know it can be a great tool to use, but I don’t feel as though it is necessary. My data analysis consists of logging my routes and mileage on strava and comparing/competing with my buddies =).

If you are under 30 min swimmer and have done a 38 min 10K in the past, then the underlying engine is there. Looks like you are a bit heavy now and lack the miles. You say you want to stay on the heavy side, which is fine, so you’ll just need more miles…both bike and run and as ML said, go with two focused blocks to improve each.

21

IF I could swim <30 on 2 swims a week, I’d be in HEAVEN.
OK - IF I could swim <30 period, I’d be destined for Hell, since it would require my selling my soul to the devil to accomplish that feat.

Good luck!

Funny you say that, as swimming is just one of those things that I never really struggled with, unlike running. I started 2 years ago in a free YMCA masters swim group struggling against the 70 year old aqua joggers in the slow lane. No high caliber coach, just a volunteer. I’m now in the fast lane, but there are quite a few much faster swimmers there then myself. I find getting my times down in running is much harder, and if I take a couple weeks off from it I might as well take a year as it seems I lose the speed so fast. With swimming that doesn’t seem to be the case!

Thanks for your advice! Looks like I have my work cut out for me!