Saw an underwater shot of my swimming, looks like I swim around 22 degrees f/ horizontal (line from shoulder to hip). Tomorrow I’m going to play with head position and also try pushing down with my chest, see if I can’t reduce that drag. Are there any other tips or drills to try? I have been swimming a lot (for a triathlete), so that isn’t an issue. Trying to get out of the slow lane.
Thank you.
Thats my pickup line…
Head down bum up, kick more and try and push your cheast down. I find when I kick more it gets me where I need to be. Or find someone to coach you on your swim tech?
What is your same side leg doing when your arm is between the midpoint and finish of the the pull? Work on your ability to answer that question. Next, work on your ability to affect the answer. Finally, note the result of different approaches to affecting this relationship.
The above is the foundation of body position. All other answers pertain to fine tuning.
Try pushing off the wall, upside down and dophin kicking as you watch yourself in the reflection of the underside of the water. Stay a constant distance under the surface as long as reasonably possible
That helped my overall balance quite a bit.
Also, try to hold your breath in your belly rather than your chest. It keeps the bubble of buoyance nearer your centre of gravity and you can balance like a see-saw (horizontal) easier.
What is your same side leg doing when your arm is between the midpoint and finish of the the pull? Work on your ability to answer that question. Next, work on your ability to affect the answer. Finally, note the result of different approaches to affecting this relationship.
The above is the foundation of body position. All other answers pertain to fine tuning.
Thanks, Dave.
Same side starts kicking down towards the finish of the pull (as well as at the beginning of the catch), before my arm sweeps past my hip. My kick itself is atrocious, though, so that may be part of the problem.
Try pushing off the wall, upside down and dophin kicking as you watch yourself in the reflection of the underside of the water. Stay a constant distance under the surface as long as reasonably possible
That helped my overall balance quite a bit.
Also, try to hold your breath in your belly rather than your chest. It keeps the bubble of buoyance nearer your centre of gravity and you can balance like a see-saw (horizontal) easier.
TriDork
Thanks, TriDork - never heard of that, I’ll give it a try.
Head down bum up, kick more and try and push your cheast down. I find when I kick more it gets me where I need to be. Or find someone to coach you on your swim tech?
Thanks, Stuartaus. I’ll mess around with my kicking, it pretty much sucks no matter what I do.
What is your same side leg doing when your arm is between the midpoint and finish of the the pull? Work on your ability to answer that question. Next, work on your ability to affect the answer. Finally, note the result of different approaches to affecting this relationship.
The above is the foundation of body position. All other answers pertain to fine tuning.
Thanks, Dave.
Same side starts kicking down towards the finish of the pull (as well as at the beginning of the catch), before my arm sweeps past my hip. My kick itself is atrocious, though, so that may be part of the problem.
Sinking legs and therefore a steep body angle is NOT a kick problem. If you are using your kick to keep you horizontal, you will use lots of energy for no real purpose and just tire yourself out. Get horizontal without kicking, THEN you can add the kick for propulsion if you want.
I’m not fast by any stretch (1:02 IM swim times, very consistently) but I manage what speed I do have, thanks to a good position, and at IM, I only kick for about the last 300-400m just to warm my legs up for the run to T1 and the start of the bike. For me, virtually all my swimming is a pull set, with barely a rare flutter with one foot, more to stabilize me and keep me straight, than to keep me horizontal or to get any propulsion.
I can kick acceptably well, and several times have gone under 2:00 flat for 100m kicks. Doing 100m kick repeats, my time blows out to fairly even 2:10’s or so. Not bad for a short fat 50 year old guy with a bad attitude! 
One ‘check’ for head position is when you go into a turn. As you approach the wall, you should only see the bottom of the + on the wall.
What is your same side leg doing when your arm is between the midpoint and finish of the the pull? Work on your ability to answer that question. Next, work on your ability to affect the answer. Finally, note the result of different approaches to affecting this relationship.
The above is the foundation of body position. All other answers pertain to fine tuning.
Thanks, Dave.
Same side starts kicking down towards the finish of the pull (as well as at the beginning of the catch), before my arm sweeps past my hip. My kick itself is atrocious, though, so that may be part of the problem.
Sinking legs and therefore a steep body angle is NOT a kick problem.
Glad we agree. I wasn’t describing a kick problem.
Sinking legs and therefore a steep body angle is NOT a kick problem. If you are using your kick to keep you horizontal, you will use lots of energy for no real purpose and just tire yourself out. Get horizontal without kicking, THEN you can add the kick for propulsion if you want.
I’m not fast by any stretch (1:02 IM swim times, very consistently) but I manage what speed I do have, thanks to a good position, and at IM, I only kick for about the last 300-400m just to warm my legs up for the run to T1 and the start of the bike. For me, virtually all my swimming is a pull set, with barely a rare flutter with one foot, more to stabilize me and keep me straight, than to keep me horizontal or to get any propulsion.
I can kick acceptably well, and several times have gone under 2:00 flat for 100m kicks. Doing 100m kick repeats, my time blows out to fairly even 2:10’s or so. Not bad for a short fat 50 year old guy with a bad attitude!
Thanks for the clarification, TriDork.
From a treading start (no push-off, which shaves off 8sec), I’m 1:00 for 25y kicking - clearly horrendous even compared to my swimming. Maybe body position is key for both.
One ‘check’ for head position is when you go into a turn. As you approach the wall, you should only see the bottom of the + on the wall.
Thanks, Tigerchik - that’s very useful information. Based on that, my head position is not too high.
But my hips are clearly too low, so… I’ve got to figure out some way to get them up.
Glad we agree. I wasn’t describing a kick problem.
My timing seems to fall within the FF guidelines. Towards the late side using the 6 beat, earlier using 2 beat - both within FF guidelines. Given I’m slower with 2 beat, I would guess my body position isn’t any better despite the earlier kick placement. This seemed different than a timing issue to me, but I have no clue. I do know I’m wasting a lot of energy at this angle (now that I know I’m at this angle).
How much and what type of stand alone kicking are you doing?
How much and what type of stand alone kicking are you doing?
There are always kicking sets assigned in each of the four 1hr Masters classes/week that I attend. The earlier class is faster paced so I wear long fins (never finish otherwise); the later class is geared towards beginners, is slower, so I don’t wear fins unless instructed.
I perform the kicking sets assigned, choosing the max option when provided, from the FF ATG workouts (only started a couple/few weeks ago). I wear long fins for about 25% of those. Previously I did the kicking sets for the FF basic program w/o fins.
Sorry, didn’t remember you were a client. You should film some video of yourself swimming and kicking and submit it to the FF forum for myself and Rob to see.
A well formed kick properly timed is key to body position. Sounds like you have the timing, but the kick itself could use some work. Generally, the answer there is to kick more, in all kinds of ways. Fast, with fins, on your back, etc. As well as increasing the overall volume. Did you see the blog post we did on kicking a few months back? “Waiter, this fish isn’t boiling?”
How long have ou been struggling? Are you noticing improvement but not happy with the timeframe or do you feel as if you are getting nowhere?
I would highly recomend taking this conversation to our private forum so we can eliminate secondary concerns.
Sorry, didn’t remember you were a client. You should film some video of yourself swimming and kicking and submit it to the FF forum for myself and Rob to see.
A well formed kick properly timed is key to body position. Sounds like you have the timing, but the kick itself could use some work. Generally, the answer there is to kick more, in all kinds of ways. Fast, with fins, on your back, etc. As well as increasing the overall volume. Did you see the blog post we did on kicking a few months back? “Waiter, this fish isn’t boiling?”
How long have ou been struggling? Are you noticing improvement but not happy with the timeframe or do you feel as if you are getting nowhere?
I would highly recomend taking this conversation to our private forum so we can eliminate secondary concerns.
No reason why you should remember me.
Yes, I did read your blog.
I’ve been trying to learn to swim for 2.25 years now (but with time off for significant injury). Yes, I am making progress.
I just saw my underwater form 2 days ago and realized how much effort I’m wasting; it didn’t seem to have anything to do with FF, so I tried here.
I have no concerns - I think FF is a terrific program, and it is absolutely helping me. I just didn’t think it had anything to do with my angled swimming.
And I really want to learn to swim well … or at least not horribly.
I understand your frustration. Finding Freestyle, when followed to completion through one year of advanced training, is a complete program. What I mean by that is a whole bunch of things that we seem to not address, tend to fall into place when those things we do address are properly attended to.
Your underwater form for example is not really something you can simply ‘correct’ based on yours or others beliefs about what is going on down there. And it is also not something we ignore. Your hands will find the proper place to be at the proper times when a well formed and well timed kick affords you proper body position, and the elements of awareness and proper relaxation have combined to increase your physical vocabulary sufficiently. Finding the right balance between distance per stroke and stroke rate through activities such as the Happy Medium drill can move this process along as well.
Keep developing that kick. It always takes longer than we think it should.
I think the OP’s poor body position is due, at least in part, to his kick. 1:00 for a 25, regardless of whether it’s from a push is a sure sign of a SERIOUS flaw in kick technique. Even mediocre kickers can go 2:00/100yd, good kickers can go closer to 1:30/100yd, and great kickers can go 1:15/100.
OP: what does your ankle/foot look like when you kick? Is it pretty rigid with your foot somewhat flexed, pretty rigid with toes pointed, or somewhat flexible with toes pointed.