I have a feeling I’m opening up pandora’s box, however, I am at a loss in respect to the ill-will given to Lance. Obviously, I’m not a cyclist by trade, and I skip posts that attack individuals ad hominem w/out proper substantive debate.
Without unsubstantiated attacks, why the ill-feelings?
such as:
“he’s an asshole”
“that bastard doesn’t deserve his popularity”
unsubatantiated re: relevant and proper evidence/explanation.
I want to first state that what Lance has done at the Tour de France is incredible. But cycling is not the same as it was for previous Tour winners. In today’s cycling, riders focus on one or two races a year. They train to peak at those select event. The past riders had to maintain their form throughout the year. Part of the attacks come because he has never made a attempt to win the tours in Italy or Spain. Pre-cancer, he did a similar training focus for the World Championships. There will never be another Eddy Merckx, but the magazines and TV shows constantly suggest Lance is the greatest cyclist ever. This pisses off the people, like me, that follow cycling all season long, not just in July. When you look at the 5 time tour winners list (yes, I know Lance has one 6), look at the list of the other races the other guys have one. Look at Eddy’s ability to dominate the season. Don’t forget about the classics.
US mag and TV suggest Lance is the best…because most journalists know little to nothing about cycling…they know the TdF is a race and it’s the biggest one. period. And Lance won it more than anyone else, so he is the greatest.
In Europe, there is no doubt whatsoever that Eddy Merckx is the greatest (and even if Lance goes on to win #7)…Funny thing is that Lance was interviewed by l’Equipe and said that even if he wins #7, he would still be behind Eddy Merckx, Anquetil and Hinault (he didn’t say Indurain who was already specializing a lot).
Although Anquetil and Hinault are arguable (specially on US soil with the Lemond controversy) Lance is definitely behind Eddy Merckx with 12 grand tours, several world titles, and 37 classics…37 classics being a lot more than what any current classic specialist has done…even adding the retired Museuw in the list, he is wayyyy behind Eddy Merckx.
Thanks for the response Jimmy & Francois. I notice that both of you mention the media and their depiction of Lance. Even if it’s inaccurate that he’s the best cyclist in history, should it not be more appropriate to fault the journalists rather then Lance? I just notice that many people have quite a disdain for the guy and I can’t seem to figure out why. I realize in the past he’s had a history of being a bit cocky, etcs., however, I haven’t noticed anything substantial.
Hello,
I’ll take a shot. For all of his charity work and amazing personal fortitude he seems somewhat cold and calculated. I can’t really put my finger on it and it may be more media portrayal that reality, but he just strikes me as very unspontaneous. He is by far the best tour rider of his generation, but contrast him with Cippolini, the best road sprinter of the same generation. Both are very cocky and self assured, but somehow Cipo seems more real for lack of a better term. I picture hanging out with Cipo for a week as being non stop fun and hanging out Lance as being all schedules and press releases.
Probably not very accurate on my part, but thats what seems to be portrayed in the press.
Styrrellp
I don’t think I said anything but ‘the media are often wrong’.
now people liking him, not liking him…well, it’s simple, he is a public person. some people see something in him when he talks, others see something else…so some people like him and some don’t.
Lance probably doesn’t care, and he is right about this. I don’t particularly like him. I don’t like the image that he gives as a person, or more accurately, I don’t like the interpretation I have of the image he gives as a person…I may be very wrong, it’s just based on what I saw him say on TV etc. He may be really nice guy.
Liking and not liking people don’t have to be substantiated…it’s entirely subjective.
From a UK perspective, the trouble I feel with the media is that they think they know what the public want. It’s strange, The Daily Telegraph is a respected newspaper that often has good coverage of various cycle races, yet it was they who printed an excerpt from LA Confidential. To me, this clearly sums up the media. Hypocritical – or is that perhaps the sign of a good paper – holistic!!!???
I’m no pro, I’m not even a decent age grouper but everyone can make their own mind up about who they like/don’t like and who they find inspirational. I think it’s just a really bad vibe when we start dragging successful athletes around. Compare it to business. The big cheeses sat in the city are said to be successful, and quite often it’s not because they are a nice person. They’ve worked hard and trodden on a lot of toes to get where they are. But no one can dispute - they are good at what they do…
IMO, people take the oppossing side to the 'over-the-top", “Lance Is God” type of publicity that comes from the media and especially, Lance’s unofficial fan club.
It is fair, and perhaps realistic to point out that Lance may not be the nicest guy in the world (not many superstars are), Lance is selfish with his time … prioritising training over family/marriage concerns (many superstars do), Lance is probably using PEDs (the suggestion is in opposition to the perrcieved idea from the ‘lance lovers’ that all the other elites are using except him), and (as I said in other thread) he trains for one annual race.
I compare it to Tiger Woods. If Tiger Woods trained all year just for the US Open and did not play any of the other courses/tournaments … and he won 6 US Opens in a row, would anyone call him the greatest golfer ever? Wouldn’t the media challenge him to take on the other elites at ALL of the big contests? (What if Jeff Gordon only races – and won – Daytona … would he not be slighted untuil he ran the whole series?) Geez … even the media points out that Sampras cannot win on clay. Those are 3 comparable examples from sports that I care an equal amount about (not much) as cycling.
Lance gets a free pass b/c (IMO), On TV, he has that “aw shucks” look and sound that everyone likes. Seriously, you listen to him talk, and you’re hooked., he wins the big race, year after year, he’s American, He works very hard, he’s a cancer survivor, As an American he wins the big event that Euros cherish (Americans have to love that).
I appreciate his book, b/c his book presents situations that one never hears about anywhere else. All you ever hear about Lance and his “never quit” attitude, but in the book, his life’s story is that he quits everytime he fails or it looks very grim. Then his family, support crew, friends, business partners talk him into trying again (that part of the book shocked me. I applaud his honesty). He does well, and keeps going. He’s basically a self-admitted momma’s boy that is used to getting his way (from his book).
As with most things in life, Lance is neither an angel nor devil … but for some reason when it comes to Lance you either have to be a “Lover” and never say anything that could be perceived as negative (even if it’s realisitic and true), or you have to be a “Hater” and you can never say anything that could be construed as positive (even if it is realisitc and fair). Does anyone have a realistic view of Lance, both as a person and athlete?
Thanks everyone that has replied. I appreciate the dialogue.
Although liking IMO someone can be subjective, I’m critical in analyzing someone that I have never met, and whose public persona has been shaped and manipulated by the media (for better or for worse). Has anyone here that has commented ever met Lance? Have you ever had a beer with the guy? Most likely not, therefore, ill feelings in my opinion are unsubstantitated.
I’m currently reading a book entitlted, “Lance Armstrong’s Wars.” It’s a fascinating read for a cycling newbie as well a true inside glimpse from a Outside magazine reporter that was granted nearly unlimited access to Lance and Johan, etcs. Although obviously written with a slant, I’ve come away from the first few chapters with a view of a professional athlete that not only is constantly being stretched thin by media requests-but is paranoid and torn by outside media outlets at the same time.
Can you possibly imagine being in his shoes for one second? How could one NOT be arrogant with one’s time, image, etcs.
Although, everyone has their entitlted opinions, and again, I appreciate everyone providing feedback. Thanks.
ill feelings in my opinion are unsubstantitated
Do people that have not met him really have ill-fdeelings toward him … or do they just “hate the Lance they see on TV” or “Hate the Lance persona”. I ask b/c we are all guilty of hating a certain athlete or rooting against them … even though we have no idea what they are like. Heck, some atheltes thrive on that.
Bill Laimbeer, Xavier McDaniel, Mike Tyson, Wilt Chamberlain, Jack Johnson, Jose Canseco, Barry Bonds, etc. People all have certain players-athletes and/or teams that they dislike just because of the persona of those individuals/teams. In real-life, if they were to be neighbors, they might BBQ together everynight.
IMO, when people “dislike athletes” it is nowhere near the same situation as when someone dislikes a neighbor, a co-worker, or somene they know rather well. Isn’t that understood to be the case.
How many people do not like Michael Jackson, John Kerry, or George Bush? How many people have had a beer with him?
I agree with the others. Professional Cycling these days is different than it was 15+ years ago. It’s all about specialization. Lance’s gig is the Tour de France. That’s all that he and his team and supporters are concerned about. Plays well in the US, as the TdF is looked upon as the greatest bike race in the world and thus, Lance must be the greatest cyclist in the world. In Europe, as many know it’s a bit of a different story.
As for Lance’s personality, he can be blunt and does come across as arrogant, but this is not an uncommon perception of people who live 24/7 at his level of celebrity, when you get a microphone or a camera shoved in your face the minute you step out your front door. I think anyone would grow weary and jaded about that over time - even the best professionals.
What I respect him for beyond his athletic ability is concern/love for his family and his kids. He’s stepping away from the sport, arguably at his peak so that he can devote more time to his family and his kids. What’s not to like about that.
My personal Lance Armstrong anecdote - a brush with greatness. At the Bermuda International triathlon in 1988, I walked into the post race reception, grabbed a beer and looked for an empty seat at a table. The only empty seat appeared to be right beside a young Lance at a table that also contained Mark Allan and Scott Tinely. I had met and interviewed Tinely earlier that year at a training camp and ST nodded that I should sit down, so I did. So there I sat and chatted with two of the Big Four and a future 6 time Tour de France winner who everyone called “Junior” back then.
Fleck
Hello,
I’ll take a shot. For all of his charity work and amazing personal fortitude he seems somewhat cold and calculated. I can’t really put my finger on it and it may be more media portrayal that reality, but he just strikes me as very unspontaneous. He is by far the best tour rider of his generation, but contrast him with Cippolini, the best road sprinter of the same generation. Both are very cocky and self assured, but somehow Cipo seems more real for lack of a better term. I picture hanging out with Cipo for a week as being non stop fun and hanging out Lance as being all schedules and press releases.
Probably not very accurate on my part, but thats what seems to be portrayed in the press.
Styrrellp _____________________________________________________________________________ This is exactly what I think. I guess in order for me to respect someone, I have to identify with him or her a little. Lance seems like a machine more than a person. Vs. the wekend hanging out with Cipo? Who in their right mind would turn that down? I think you would have to pay me to spend a week with Lance.
Le TdF is a prolonged endurance struggle which I would dare say takes a great deal more toll on the body than the US Open Golf Tournament. Golf is not cycling and Tiger Woods cannot be compared to Lance Armstrong. If Tiger were to focus only on the the US Open and minimize participation in other tournaments he may even lose is edge for lack of top level competition.
As for Eddie Merckx, I believe during his era he competed such a wide range of events as was the norm then. Level playing field. Now besides Lance there are other top riders such as Ulrich who also primarily focus on le TdF as the season’s main priority. Again level playing field. Apples n apples and oranges n oranges.
If this time round he dessimates his competitors like he did last year, in the TTT, ITT mountain stage ITT flat, matching the peloton on the flats, winning the crucial sprint to the line from a seemingly impossible gap, closing the gaps on the fast n furious mountain downhill run; then if this doesn’t put his stamp of greatness on his cycling I don’t know what will. Not forgetting this is the one that every pro out there would like to win the most if only he could. N not forgetting he has in the past also performed well in other races leading up to TdF altho he’s not focused on winning those.
Granted he doesn’t have the flamboyance of a Cipo or Pantani, but these guys evoke emotion and have their share of bad press doing bad boy things, like missiling drink bottles at the press during the race etc. Yes he’s a little clinical but I’ve never seen him outright rude. And his team give him the respect and pull together around him to form that legendary Blue Train. If he was an A-hole there would have been some smoke on that by now rather than the unflapable loyalty from those closest to him.
Well I’m no goo-goo ga-ga idol worshiper but seriously Kudos to Lance as the best road cyclist of this era and possibly the best in history. Why hate him? Logically he’s done nothing to warrant hate. In fact I’d say he’s done a helluva lot for cycling sport world wide thanks to his prominence and achievements.
<<“he’s an asshole”
This is not a feeling, it is an attitude.
Hating Lance? Why?
Envy.
People don’t like success.
On the contrary people like winners. That’s why most are contra to this thread and Lance is in fact Mr Popular. And “Real Men” tend to be objective. Subjective motivated reaction is more the make up of women and gays! -
These last two statements of yours…are you serious??? do you really believe what you wrote???
What I respect him for beyond his athletic ability is concern/love for his family and his kids.
This is what I do not understand. From reading his biography (It’s not about the bike), it seemed like his first wife had same critical needs that were not being met. She lived in a foreign country, away from her family, spent most of her time alone, and planned everything around Lance’s cycling. Lance got divorced long before he gave up cycling. Perhaps she is somewhat at fault also for getting married before she realized that “Cycling is #1, She was #2” (heck, even his health was a lower priority than cycling). That is the impression I get from the man’s story as told by himself through his book. Side Note: His life with his single mom seemed to set the precedent that “whatever Lance was doing was more important than anything else”.
I am not using the events in his life topaint him in a negative way, but I feel it is more important to be honest and realistic when looking at him and his life. People paint him as a never say quit man, the world’s greatest cyclist, a great husband/father, charitable man, etc. Some is accurate, some is not (by his own admission in his books).
Lance is a great, great cyclist who does many charitable things.
Actually, commenting on what kind of man, father, husband, friend, etc he is … is speculation. Other than what he writes in his books, I don’t see where any of us would be able to verify or deny any of his attitudes.
I hear what you are saying and I see how that can be read into the story. Agreed, that with sports stars and celebrity of this level much of it is speculation. However, I have known a number of top endurance athletes over the years and got to know some quite well( I even shared a beer with Lance - the teen-age kid triathlon phenom Lance of years ago) and on the whole, these are honest hard working and down to earth folk. I realize these are generalities, but I am just basing this on my relationships with these people.
I can only speak of my own experience, but If you have ever been through a divorce, family time, kid time, becomes even more important. Not in a smarmy, spoil-the-kids-every-time-you-see-them sort of way, but just being there for them as an understanding and supportive parent as much as you can.
Fleck