Has anyone gotten good results from shifting to swim training mainly with PB + paddles?

Triathlon Forum
1

Curious - has anyone gotten any good results from shifting a lot of their swim training to toy-based training, specifically PB+paddles a la Sutton and even Dixon (coaches) recs?

I’ve been AOS-swimming for nearly a decade now with zero toys - in the past I’ve been slower with a PB and the same speed with paddles.

Figured it was time to mix it up and I was shocked to find that I was faster now with either the PB or the paddles, and nearly 8sec/100 faster with both PB+paddles!

The speed, of course, is addictive, but to be honest, I feel like it simulates the body position of a wetsuit and the pull motion better. I think that extra 1cm of neoproene around the arms gives that extra oomph like a paddle does.

The drawback (if actually one) is that it is definitely aerobically easier to swim with PB+paddles, despite being harder on muscular endurance.

Anybody get good (or bad) results with this type of toy-based predominant training?

2

a la Sutton and even Dixon (coaches) recs? //

Think their athletes do pretty well, think I heard many have won some big races somewhere near Hawaii maybe??

And pulling is not aerobically easier, you just have to go faster to achieve the same PE and effort level. Always boggles me when I hear this, just go harder/faster if they speed you up!!!

3

I started using paddles for the first time in the fall after my last race. I *think *I am faster now, but training has been interrupted and I have not raced yet. I will be able to answer a little better in 2 months…

4

a la Sutton and even Dixon (coaches) recs? //

Think their athletes do pretty well, think I heard many have won some big races somewhere near Hawaii maybe??

And pulling is not aerobically easier, you just have to go faster to achieve the same PE and effort level. Always boggles me when I hear this, just go harder/faster if they speed you up!!!

Pulling is definitely aerobically easier for me for anything over 200.

The reality for AOS swimmers like myself, is that unless I’m doing short efforts of 200 or less very hard with paddles, my muscular endurance will flag well before my cardio.

Withoout PB or paddles, my arms still do fatigue over long distances, but the limiter to my top speed is definitely much more my aerobic capacity (HR). As well, with the toys, I can definitely hit the swim-specific motions harder, for longer, which is why I suspect Sutton and Dixon are OK with toys, as without them, I’m pulling a lot less forcefully when I get to the real fatiguing portions of the set or if it’s a big brick day and the swim is later.

I know Suttons’ athletes do awesome, but they are pros, and I’m also unclear as to HOW much toy use they do. In either case, I suspect Sutto’s athletes swim so much that toys or not, they’ll be killing the swim, so more interested in time-limited AGers with normal-range ability.

5

Since I mostly race SwimRun events, I pretty much exclusively swim with paddles and pull buoy. And not all pull buoys are created equal. My ARK Keel buoy is a few seconds faster than my Huub Big Buoy

6

I have used paddles, PB’s,fins and swim bands for 30 years of tri-geek training and swear by them.I even use paddles as water resistance strength aids to shoulder/broken rib rehab and general shoulder strength. I also use fins for water running and even take my medium size paddles to the beach and use them as a body surfing aid.

I am currently not training for anything but trying to get back in shape generally after four years of injury and illness and right now it is all about the pool and surf swimming here in Oz. Today I will roll through 4k in the pool with 3k of it with a mix of PB/paddles(three sizes) and fins.

My Dev Paul inspired challenge is to swim 5k a day (one session a day) for the month of April.The pool toys will take the boredom out of it and make it a bit of fun.It is amazing how creative I can get with drills to pass the time. :slight_smile:

For reference my Ironman swim best is 56:06 and Ultraman 10K is 2:42:xx

7

Curious - has anyone gotten any good results from shifting a lot of their swim training to toy-based training, specifically PB+paddles a la Sutton and even Dixon (coaches) recs?

I’ve been AOS-swimming for nearly a decade now with zero toys - in the past I’ve been slower with a PB and the same speed with paddles.

Figured it was time to mix it up and I was shocked to find that I was faster now with either the PB or the paddles, and nearly 8sec/100 faster with both PB+paddles!

The speed, of course, is addictive, but to be honest, I feel like it simulates the body position of a wetsuit and the pull motion better. I think that extra 1cm of neoproene around the arms gives that extra oomph like a paddle does.

The drawback (if actually one) is that it is definitely aerobically easier to swim with PB+paddles, despite being harder on muscular endurance.

Anybody get good (or bad) results with this type of toy-based predominant training?

My standard reply to swimming with paddles is build up gradually. If you are prone to shoulder trouble, they will bring it on quickly.

8

My standard reply to swimming with paddles is build up gradually. If you are prone to shoulder trouble, they will bring it on quickly.

This!
I started swimming with paddles a few weeks ago. I do a handful of laps with and then take them off. Can totally feel it in my shoulders and fatigue faster.

9

i think they’re good for triathletes who may be coming in to a swim session with tired legs, but I wouldn’t use them exclusively. For me, I’d use either paddles or PB to add longer sets and build up volume since it doesn’t tire you as aerobically as regular swimming. Paddles also assist with strength buliding. I think it did help me - but I use the paddles alone to maintain the proper kick technique I use when regular swimming.

10

Suttons group is full of way more than pro athletes, by probably 80-85%. Probably many more “successful” AG champions than the pros. But the training is the same. Many of the AG athletes never take out the PB other than for shorter sprints or race specificity of a non-wetsuit swim.

The big thing with swimming with PB or tools for most AOS. Does it make you feel better and enjoy swimming more? Does it allow you to swim more? If yes, then by all means, use the PB as much as needed to get in the training. Sure there is an argument for not letting it become a crutch, but that is what a coach is for. To give you pointers and insight on how to swim with a PB so that it’s not simply this crutch referenced by anti-PB’ers :smiley:

11

…And pulling is not aerobically easier, you just have to go faster to achieve the same PE and effort level. Always boggles me when I hear this, just go harder/faster if they speed you up!!!
Surely this is almost directly equivalent to gear selection when cycling.
More propulsion and higher muscular load for lower speed of limb motion. It moves the muscle fatigue/aerobic exertion balance toward the muscle side. I climb hills a little faster on the bike when I select a low cadence and a bigger gear, but my muscles fatigue sooner. Higher power output but a bit less CV impact, and quicker muscle fatigue.

It’s not hard to see why. It takes energy to move your limbs, so additional limb movement reduces overall efficiency. It’s the same for swimming or cycling but perhaps easier to discuss for cycling. Consider the legs as part of the drive train along with the shoes, pedals, cranks, chain system (chainrings, chain and cassette), wheels, and rolling resistance. You may produce 250W at the pedals of which, say, 210W actually contributes to the force applied at the road/tyre boundary. We start measuring at the pedals of after because that’s where it’s practical to do so. However, if we were to move back to the muscles themselves which actually convert our CV output to kinetic energy, the power at that point is higher. I don’t know how much, but lets say an extra 100W for the sake of a worked example?

So the muscles produce 350W, of which 250W reach the pedals after the loses involved in moving your limbs around. Then say 235W reaches the back wheel and 210W reaches the tyre/road surface interface after rolling resistance takes it’s share.
If we reduce cadence, there is less limb movement, and it seems reasonable to assume that 100W reduces, lets say it’s now 70W. Now if the muscles produce, say, 330W the CV system has to support less energy demand, but the output at the road (assuming no change in bike drive train efficiency) is actually 10W higher. However, since the muscles are moving slower, the forces are higher and there are other factors at play which effect leg fatigue.

I’m sure it’s more complex than that. But it seems a feasible and realistic high level model…no?

12

I have changed up my swimming this offseason and do a lot of pulling on long intervals. 3-4x1k, warmup then 3x800, 8x500, etc. I have a suspicion that these coaches do this for the same reason I am. If you do traditional swim training, you’ll likely end up with too many intense workouts for the week if you’re doing intensity on bike and run as well. These pulling sessions are great for aerobic endurance & strength without wiping me out. There for I can do them on my easier days between hard bike & run days and not affect the hard sessions.

Now I do them a little differently, Tower 26 style. Snorkel, buoy & band (no paddles). I feel like this allows me to complete the long intervals without my form breaking down. In fact I feel the opposite happens, good form, body position & rotation are deeply engrained.

13

I made this change back in late September, been doing every swim with paddles and pull buoy. I had gone years doing the typical tri club swim workouts and just never got any faster. Typical wetsuit times for me are around 33 minutes for a 70.3 and around 1:10 for a IM swim.
Most of my swims are at lunch hour in a 25m pool, and I usually do about 2000m, all with the paddles and pull buoy. I’m hoping they are helping to build some strength…we’ll see once the season starts, maybe I’ll do no better, but wanted to at least try a different approach.

14

I wouldn’t say I’ve seen good results from them directly

However it keeps me engaged and simply less bored at the pool when swimming solo, so I end up swimming more, which I do see results from
.

15

Curious - has anyone gotten any good results from shifting a lot of their swim training to toy-based training, specifically PB+paddles a la Sutton and even Dixon (coaches) recs?

I’ve been AOS-swimming for nearly a decade now with zero toys - in the past I’ve been slower with a PB and the same speed with paddles.

Figured it was time to mix it up and I was shocked to find that I was faster now with either the PB or the paddles, and nearly 8sec/100 faster with both PB+paddles!

The speed, of course, is addictive, but to be honest, I feel like it simulates the body position of a wetsuit and the pull motion better. I think that extra 1cm of neoproene around the arms gives that extra oomph like a paddle does.

The drawback (if actually one) is that it is definitely aerobically easier to swim with PB+paddles, despite being harder on muscular endurance.

Anybody get good (or bad) results with this type of toy-based predominant training?

I have no experience at all with training mainly with PB and paddles, and I have no interest in doing so given that my main focus is on swimming and not triathlon. However, I have found that when putting on gear, e.g. sprinting with fins, pull with paddles, for an activation set before the main set of the day can result in faster swimming during the main set. I think that it helps gain awareness of body position through the faster speeds, and so carries over when you take the gear off.

16

I’m not an AOS nor do I use toys all that often, but I do see a lot of folks like that at the pool. From the race caps they wear, most are triathletes as well. These are the type of swimmers who are possibly using toys from the first push off the wall, be it fins, paddles, snorkel, etc. Anecdotally, none of them have very good strokes. Their butts fishtail with paddles on, and I’m not sure they can keep the paddles on their hands without the wrist strap (note, you should only ever be using a finger strap).

I do a paddles + buoy set no more than once a week, trying to keep it to 10-20% of my total yardage. The way I use them is the smallest buoy (note, I use the ones supplied by the pool, I don’t bring my own) and largest paddles (for me, that is the 2nd largest Strokemakers), so that I’m maximizing resistance during the pull phase. Generally I do these sets after my main swim set, when I’m already fatigued. You’re right that it will seem easier to pull if you allow yourself to settle into the same effort of your normal stroke, but really you should be pulling harder. Another thing I do to increase workload is strict breath control. Since my legs are doing nothing, I am using a lot less oxygen, so I will breathe every 3rd stroke and sprinkle in every 5th (this is 3 breaths per length for me). Back in my ‘real swimmer’ days pulling sets were always a welcome diversion but were never easy. They are all about pulling as hard as you can, like trying to keep cadence up with the increased resistance.

Another good way to use paddles is a smaller paddle and focusing on higher turnover, or doing drills like sculling, especially if you’re not good at sculling.

Or, if you really want a challenge, put the buoy and paddles away, and put a band around your ankles. Or swim with a parachute.

All of that is to say, I don’t think it’s a good idea to be toy-heavy in swim training. Not every toy should be used every week, much less every session, with the amount of swimming a triathlete does. If you really train like an elite swimmer with 10+ sessions a week, then you’d have plenty of time to use a lot of toys.

17

I’m a life-long competitive swimmer and I’ve been a college and masters coach professionally. I’ve used all the toys and created workouts with all the toys. I think there are pros and cons with the toys.

My lifelong swim friends and I call paddles and buoys “cheaters.” Starting way back in USA and college swimming training, for me in the 80’s and 90’s, paddles and buoys definitely were the choice during long aerobic, aerobic+, and threshold sets. Simply put, we could have an easier time making the intervals because we were faster and worked less to achieve those times. It was automatic: when the sets got long and fast, out came the gear, especially late into college years and into masters swimming.

Even as recently as last fall, when I did my “birthday swim (48 x 100 short course meters),” I got congrats from my swim friends for doing it all without “cheaters.”

I see paddles and buoy as tools to help with technique, and as a time-filler when long swimming is boring. These do not, however, really help with water “feel,” which is essential for any swimming. These also to don’t allow users to simulate race conditions or proper body position, even when the end goal is to use a wetsuit (wetsuits are a completely different conversation).

Paddles and buoys can end up being a crutch. You swim faster, but your turnover rate, position, and stroke pattern are affected. As someone mentioned, it’s like training full time in the big ring, but finding the need to use the entire range during a race because of muscle power fatigue.

Paddles are great for helping you get “EVF,” and buoys are great for isolating your arm strokes. But these are alike to drills, mostly, and you can’t swim drills all the time.

If you want to get better, just swim. Swim fast so you can swim fast. Use tools/toys sparingly for the right reasons. That might even include things like passing the time, but don’t use those as crutches. And definitely don’t use these just so you can be faster in a given set. Never use paddles for designated fast or pace sets.

Finally, if you want the best tool/toy, IMO, use a swim snorkel without any other stuff. Besides the ability to focus on pure stroke and kick teq, you can really withdraw completely into yourself and tune out the outside world. Interestingly, in that way, it can help prep you for the relative isolation you’d feel racing in murky water that completely shrinks your field of vision.

18

I’m a life-long competitive swimmer and I’ve been a college and masters coach professionally. I’ve used all the toys and created workouts with all the toys. I think there are pros and cons with the toys.

My lifelong swim friends and I call paddles and buoys “cheaters.” Starting way back in USA and college swimming training, for me in the 80’s and 90’s, paddles and buoys definitely were the choice during long aerobic, aerobic+, and threshold sets. Simply put, we could have an easier time making the intervals because we were faster and worked less to achieve those times. It was automatic: when the sets got long and fast, out came the gear, especially late into college years and into masters swimming.

Even as recently as last fall, when I did my “birthday swim (48 x 100 short course meters),” I got congrats from my swim friends for doing it all without “cheaters.”

I see paddles and buoy as tools to help with technique, and as a time-filler when long swimming is boring. These do not, however, really help with water “feel,” which is essential for any swimming. These also to don’t allow users to simulate race conditions or proper body position, even when the end goal is to use a wetsuit (wetsuits are a completely different conversation).

Paddles and buoys can end up being a crutch. You swim faster, but your turnover rate, position, and stroke pattern are affected. As someone mentioned, it’s like training full time in the big ring, but finding the need to use the entire range during a race because of muscle power fatigue.

Paddles are great for helping you get “EVF,” and buoys are great for isolating your arm strokes. But these are alike to drills, mostly, and you can’t swim drills all the time.

If you want to get better, just swim. Swim fast so you can swim fast. Use tools/toys sparingly for the right reasons. That might even include things like passing the time, but don’t use those as crutches. And definitely don’t use these just so you can be faster in a given set. Never use paddles for designated fast or pace sets.

Finally, if you want the best tool/toy, IMO, use a swim snorkel without any other stuff. Besides the ability to focus on pure stroke and kick teq, you can really withdraw completely into yourself and tune out the outside world. Interestingly, in that way, it can help prep you for the relative isolation you’d feel racing in murky water that completely shrinks your field of vision.

Side note on drills, I read an interesting take on drills from one of the D1 coaches, head coach of a pretty good program, but I cannot recall for the life of me who it is. In essence, the message was that once you’ve “mastered” a drill, it’s time to stop doing it since you aren’t gaining anything. drills are about learning new movement patterns, and they’re supposed to be awkward. I thought that was an interesting perspective, and I’ve been trying to work in some of that to my swimming. I do very few drills, and the handful I do tend to be the same ones over and over.

19

That coaching advice is great.

I never do drills at all. That might not work with newer swimmers. I tend to focus on whole-stroke swimming. I tend to avoid other coached masters workouts bc some have a large emphasis on drills. I just don’t want to come off as the guy who doesn’t listen and do the intended workout. I welcome stroke tips (“overreaching on your left arm,” “need a tighter streamline off the walls,” etc), but I’m not going to do new drills.

I also assign a few in-stroke tips to swimmers I coach, but I don’t often assign drills.

YRMV.

20

When I used to live in Vernon, B.C, the evening public swim schedule made it virtually impossible to do a swim session focused strictly on any of the finer points (speed, mechanics, etc) due to the number of swimmers per lane doing completely different workouts at varying ability levels. Having read some Sutton remarks about Bella and Stephen Bayliss running into a similar situation, I duct taped two pull buoys together, bought a pair of paddles, and just pinned it for an hour, building by 20min intervals. Not ideal for development as a swimmer (my swim splits improved by default once I moved to a bigger town with better facilities), although it was still good for 61min no wetsuit IM swim. But it had a terrific impact on the bike split, and the work capacity it developed allowed for more aggressive racing overall. For triathlon, it could be argued that getting proficient in pull/paddle swimming is the best bike training you can do.