Just curious, as a guy who regularly overcooks himself mid season and often has race results that go backwards often up to 20 watts even in a sprint race…
How many hard bike workouts a week do you do ? As in for example, 1x threshold/v02, 1x tempo or ss, one long, the rest relatively easy ? And for what distance are you training for ?
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Depends on how many hard runs you are doing as well. Usually 1-2 hard rides per week.
This is a very dependent thing. Swim volume/run volume/bike volume and intensity all need to be balanced. How dead are you after a workout? I’d throw in everyone is different line. Some people respond really well to sprints, Some VO2 efforts, and others FTP.
But, my general thought here is if you’re dead after the bike workout it was probably too hard. 2x20 is my go to hard workout and if I do it right make sure to stay at or below ftp I feel great and can recover quickly. If your ftp is set too high or you drift up too often you’ll overcook and take longer to recover.
So, hard bike workouts 1-2, but if you’re doing 2 maybe reduce run intensity. Also, hard doesn’t mean dead at the end.
I’ve been very happy with the 80/20 book plans, Oly advanced in my case.
Generally 1 interval-type workout per week (Z3-5), and one set of Z3 workouts (threshold or near-threshold) that is usually integrated into the long bike of the week. Rest of workouts are z1-2 (easy aerobic to long sustainable aerobic.)
It feels like enough given that there are equally hard run workouts of similar duration and quality during the week (1 threshold + 1 z3 run workout is a recurring theme, not every week, but a lot of them.) And swim intervals all the time.
A lot does depend on the run - the run does beat down the legs pretty hard, even compared to the bike, so if you’re not running, you can do more hard bike work.
Most of my bike rides are ‘hard’ and most of my runs are easy. This is all based on perceived effort, I don’t use any tech.
1x/week hard on the bike, training for sprint distance.
Most of my bike rides are ‘hard’ and most of my runs are easy. This is all based on perceived effort, I don’t use any tech.
A ‘hard’ perceived effort on the bike varies greatly based on distance/duration.
A z2 bike effort for 2.5 hrs for me at 220watts the whole way feels decently ‘hard’ for me. I have to focus on keeping the speed up the whole time to maintain that sort of effort, even if I’m not redlining, and in the last 20 minutes, it can be a struggle.
A z4-5 VO2max or beyond effort, for me 320+ watts for 1-3 minutes feels hard as well, in a slightly different way.
You may think you ride ‘hard all the time’ if you’re doing mostly 1+hr bike rides at steadyish pace, even with climbs, but if you do an interval set that forces you to your limits with a powermeter, you’ll see how widely varying the actual power required for short vs long ‘hard’ efforts is.
Before I got my powermeter, I used think I rode ‘hard’ all the time. I guess I still do, but there’s a big functional and training effect difference from short 320+ watts efforts vs long steady 220+ watts efforts.
To maybe echo that, I see it as most all workouts need to have a challenge. Low intensity but longer duration. A tough balance of intensity and duration. High intensity, short duration. Etc… It’s even a challenge to have self control to spin true z1 for some active recovery! It’s easier to go ahead and do some low z2 for more fun than to let the Freds pass you while you do z1.
In that sense, most all my bike workouts take focus.
I run in the off season for some cheap aerobic effect when weather or time just aren’t on my side and I can’t fire up the Zwift for one reason or another. Those, I run “tempo” almost always. Then run all out for 5k maybe once a month and some 4x400 one other time in the month.
I usually do a 10mi-ish TT once a month outside of planned workouts. In-season, that’s once a week with our little “club tt”.
Just curious, as a guy who regularly overcooks himself mid season and often has race results that go backwards often up to 20 watts even in a sprint race…
How many hard bike workouts a week do you do ? As in for example, 1x threshold/v02, 1x tempo or ss, one long, the rest relatively easy ? And for what distance are you training for ?
What we do is irrelevant to what you should do. You say you overcook yourself, try doing 1 less than you’re typically doing and see if that helps. Or, ask your coach. Don’t have one, you say? Maybe that’s the real crux of the problem.
eta: there’s a really good chance that it’s not how many hard workouts you’re doing, or how hard you’re doing them, that’s causing your issues. It could as easily be that your easy days are too hard, or maybe you’re under fueling or under sleeping. To help figure that out, see comment above re: a coach. Even if you only confer with a coach to analyze your data and comment, that’s a great start.
Whatever TrainerRoad tells me to do. It is probably 2-3 “hard” workouts a week out of 4. By hard, I mean intervals that get pretty uncomfortable toward the the end of the session. And I probably have one workout every few weeks that I wonder if I will be able to complete it at the prescribed level of effort. (I usually do.) I am training for 70.3.
Just curious, as a guy who regularly overcooks himself mid season and often has race results that go backwards often up to 20 watts even in a sprint race…
How many hard bike workouts a week do you do ? As in for example, 1x threshold/v02, 1x tempo or ss, one long, the rest relatively easy ? And for what distance are you training for ?
There have been several great threads on this topic. Most revolve around using one of the online slay yourself almost every ride programs.
If you, or anyone is serious about improving and not back sliding as the season rolls around to the championship part, these threads should be mandatory reading.
Sadly, or happily, depends on your pov, most won’t bother to search out these threads
Most of my bike rides are ‘hard’ and most of my runs are easy. This is all based on perceived effort, I don’t use any tech.
A ‘hard’ perceived effort on the bike varies greatly based on distance/duration.
A z2 bike effort for 2.5 hrs for me at 220watts the whole way feels decently ‘hard’ for me. I have to focus on keeping the speed up the whole time to maintain that sort of effort, even if I’m not redlining, and in the last 20 minutes, it can be a struggle.
A z4-5 VO2max or beyond effort, for me 320+ watts for 1-3 minutes feels hard as well, in a slightly different way.
But are your zones correctly set? I can definitely see 220 being hard if 320 is vo2 max, but that’d make the 220 more like z3.
220 is my typical Z2 ride as well, but it’s a really boring, can do this all day without even thinking about it type of outdoor ride while.vo2 is more 390+ (for 3-5 minute repeats in season).
To maybe echo that, I see it as most all workouts need to have a challenge. Low intensity but longer duration. A tough balance of intensity and duration. High intensity, short duration. Etc…
I think that can be really unnecessary and create more opportunities to burn out.
If I did 10-15 “challenging workouts” a week, I’d just quit altogether.
Of my four-five rides a week, 3-4 of them are 30-45 minutes z2 spins on the trainer. Only challenge for those is getting on the trainer and pedaling in the first place. No mental focus needed, just a good chance to unwind. Same for easy runs.
Even that pushes me close to burning out and/or over-reaching too much if I’m not careful. Sometimes (a lot of time for me), you just have to shut off the brain and not try to make every thing physically difficult.
Most of my bike rides are ‘hard’ and most of my runs are easy. This is all based on perceived effort, I don’t use any tech.
A ‘hard’ perceived effort on the bike varies greatly based on distance/duration.
A z2 bike effort for 2.5 hrs for me at 220watts the whole way feels decently ‘hard’ for me. I have to focus on keeping the speed up the whole time to maintain that sort of effort, even if I’m not redlining, and in the last 20 minutes, it can be a struggle.
A z4-5 VO2max or beyond effort, for me 320+ watts for 1-3 minutes feels hard as well, in a slightly different way.
But are your zones correctly set? I can definitely see 220 being hard if 320 is vo2 max, but that’d make the 220 more like z3.
220 is my typical Z2 ride as well, but it’s a really boring, can do this all day without even thinking about it type of outdoor ride while.vo2 is more 390+ (for 3-5 minute repeats in season).
I’m using the 80-20 zone calculator
https://www.8020endurance.com/8020-zone-calculator/
Honestly, I haven’t tested my FTP for quite awhile, but I done know that I can ride 2.5 hrs at a hard, but sustainable level at 220 watts without burying myself, and the I can do VO2max short intervals at over 300 watts. Per that calculator, that probably pegs me at around 260-270 FTP, which is probably about right for me.
For you, I’d estimate that being able to do 220w all day and 390+ for 3-5 min repeats is def FFFOP cycling for triathlon!
I’m using the 80-20 zone calculator
https://www.8020endurance.com/8020-zone-calculator/
Honestly, I haven’t tested my FTP for quite awhile, but I done know that I can ride 2.5 hrs at a hard, but sustainable level at 220 watts without burying myself, and the I can do VO2max short intervals at over 300 watts. Per that calculator, that probably pegs me at around 260-270 FTP, which is probably about right for me.
For you, I’d estimate that being able to do 220w all day and 390+ for 3-5 min repeats is def FFFOP cycling for triathlon!
Wow. Thanks for the info. I haven’t seen that before. It’s certainly different. Looks like they took a 3 zone polarized model and then adding in x,y, 4, and 5 to make it a seven zone model? Seems a bit bizarre and confusing.
But I definitely see the difference as their “z2” is a massive range: 70-83%. 2.5 hours at a more typical z3/tempo pace is definitely a hard workout!
I’m also a cat 1 so a bit atypical with the vo2 max stuff. Just a very big difference between vo2 and easy z2, but that’s based on a different calculator than you use.
I’m using the 80-20 zone calculator
https://www.8020endurance.com/8020-zone-calculator/
Honestly, I haven’t tested my FTP for quite awhile, but I done know that I can ride 2.5 hrs at a hard, but sustainable level at 220 watts without burying myself, and the I can do VO2max short intervals at over 300 watts. Per that calculator, that probably pegs me at around 260-270 FTP, which is probably about right for me.
Wow. Thanks for the info. I haven’t seen that before. It’s certainly different. Looks like they took a 3 zone polarized model and then adding in x,y, 4, and 5 to make it a seven zone model? Seems a bit bizarre and confusing.
But I definitely see the difference as their “z2” is a massive range: 70-83%. 2.5 hours at a more typical z3/tempo pace is definitely a hard workout!
Yes, for sure their ‘z2’ is quite a large range. I was worried about it at first, but turns out it probably works better that way, as z2 efforts tend to be the most variable in terms of how you feel that day and accumulated fatigue influence. Some days my scheduled z2 workout totally lames out and I’m barely breaking z1, but other days (most in my case) I’m in the very upper end of that z2, and it feels almost as hard as I can go for 2.5+ hrs while riding as evenly as possible.
I target the wattage more precisely for the z4-5 stuff which tends to be efforts 2-7 minutes long.
And yes, cat1 cycling >>>>> triathlon FFOP. A lot closer to triathlon bike FFFFOP!
Less is more I guess.
I teach spin classes 3x a week and they can be intense at times. Then I have a set of v02 workouts and the other ride day is zone 3 sweet spot type work. Then the long easy ride on the weekend. Run all easy except one interval session a week.
And yep I’m burnt. In fact backwards power at races burnt. As mentioned like 20 watts.
Thanks for the info all it has confirmed my suspicion. Recovery week it is and then make the changes.
As others have said, highly dependent
But as an example from among my athletes
Those with low condition would generally do 2 or 3 extensive (sweetspot) 40minsTiZ or long tempo 90mins TiZ sets if not doing running intensity
Highest condition athletes will be 60-80mins TiZ extensive, but more likely to lose a set in favour of some running intensity and the long tempo set is somewhat tough (120+ TiZ).
My current strongest athlete on 1 extensive, 1 long tempo, 1 running intervals and 1 long run as key sets. He has very high CTL, FTP past 370 so recovery is rapid.
Essentially you need to work out what dosage you can recover from. For myself - I don’t have the condition currently to do consecutive effort days, so I look at the training my athletes are doing and try not to feel despondent. To change this I know that I need to progress the load (overall and specific) just as I do for my athletes. No point looking at the guy that will go sub 9 and doing the same sessions.
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this. my plan has me riding usually 4x a week, one of them makes me want to quit cycling. the others are boring as hell.