Wouldn’t that be the next logical step? The watches/computers all have unique identifiers, so why not? (other than the obvious comm protocol differences)
Wouldn’t that be the next logical step? The watches/computers all have unique identifiers, so why not? (other than the obvious comm protocol differences)
GPS watches are expensive and not everyone has one. RFID chips in the timing chips are cheap aznd pretty much fool proof. GPS can be off if the view to the sky isnt perfect. Seems like a suboptimal solution to a non-existant problem.
Also, GPS devices require batteries while timing chips do not.
GPS doesn’t work that way.
Watches do not transmit to satellites. They don’t have the power. Satellites send out a signal and watches figure out where they are.
oh so my watch transmits the data to my laptop telepathy! I realize the watch is a GPS receiver but it is also 2.4 ghz tx/rx device - at least I think that’s the approx frequency range for ANT+
I love this idea as I failed to get a time at IMMT even though I had my chip on the whole race. My GPS and finisherpix seem to be the only “proof” that I was there. A few years ago I recall the Philadelphia and Honolulu marathons having issues with the old “D tag” where a huge number of people never get timed.
Bring back the popsicle sticks!
oh so my watch transmits the data to my laptop telepathy! I realize the watch is a GPS receiver but it is also 2.4 ghz tx/rx device - at least I think that’s the approx frequency range for ANT+
Yes, telepathically. Exactly. Anyway, all you have to do now is provide a GPS watch to every competitor that doesn’t have one and you are all set.
ha ha, you think you’re not paying for your chip now?
Last time I downloaded data off the 910 it took a number of minutes to complete. You are over that timing mat in about 1/2 second. Even taking a range of 30 feet or so into account you are still out of that zone well before the watch would finish uploading. Heck it takes longer than that just to pair up with the ANT+ stick and begin the process.
Also, cheating. RFID tags are perfect. They are cheap and completely passive and tamper proof. All the smarts are on the receiving end (the suitcases with computers inside them, attached to the timing mats). With everyone in control of their own timing device it’d be pretty easy to connect a portable computer to a GPS watch and manipulate your data during the race.
ha ha, you think you’re not paying for your chip now?
I’m not paying $400 for it.
Also, GPS devices require batteries while timing chips do not.
Not completely true; more and more of the timing chips (for multisport) are going to “active” chips which do have a battery. The batteries last somewhere between 3-5 years depending on which brand. As far as I know, the batteries are not replaceable so the timing company gets to buy new (replacement) chips every few years.
The bib chips and “shoe tags” are still passive which have a dual frequency aspect to them; an excitation frequency which “wakes up” the chip it then responds with its ID.
The active chips are supposed to be better in that there are fewer missed reads and can be detected/read at a higher speed than the passive chips.
Last time I downloaded data off the 910 it took a number of minutes to complete. You are over that timing mat in about 1/2 second. Even taking a range of 30 feet or so into account you are still out of that zone well before the watch would finish uploading. Heck it takes longer than that just to pair up with the ANT+ stick and begin the process.
Also, cheating. RFID tags are perfect. They are cheap and completely passive and tamper proof. All the smarts are on the receiving end (the suitcases with computers inside them, attached to the timing mats). With everyone in control of their own timing device it’d be pretty easy to connect a portable computer to a GPS watch and manipulate your data during the race.
Tamper proof?
It is perhaps one of the easiest things to fake.
RFIDs are programmable. Most of the ones used at races contain only a serial number and perhaps some other information, but for the most part, they go through the antenna and the antenna reads 123456789 or what ever the number is, and during registration when they “activate the chip” they just associate the number with your name
So how do you fool the system? You get an RFID reader, read your chip and then program a dupe.
Want a cushy swim, especially with a wave start.
Swap caps or get a second cap from a friend. You carry your chip in your hand, top of your wetsuit, etc. and go off in an early wave. Your buddy has the dupe chip for your wave, he goes through with both chips and then before the start tucks the second chip in his hand and dumps its during the start or during the swim. You can swim at a relaxing pace and pick up the gap between the two wave starts. Very easy to pull of cap and goggles exiting the water as well, and while might be a little more obvious at a small event, at an IM, can be an easy 6 minutes to 10 minutes.
Similar type of things can be done on both the bike and the run, especially on out and backs where you can have a faster runner go through and cover the full distance while you sandbag. Harder to do at the FOP, but for those doing around 11 hr, can easily cut off a half hour or more which could be a Kona spot.
I think the original posters idea of using the GPS was not to have the GPS data (i.e. Garmin Connect) be the timing, but the GPS (i.e. the unit ID of the GPS device to act as the timing chip. i.e. instead of RFID 1234567, Garmin Serial 2HL013555
I would actually be surprised if this type of cheating does not take place already, just like many people cut courses. Hard to do at the front of the race, but once you get a little deeper, much easier to hide.
The type of cheating possible with a timing chip (make copies, or alter the serial numbers) work only if two or more competitors gang up and do it together. Can’t do it alone. At that point the stronger athlete might as well race with theirs and their friends’ timing chip. Same thing.
One must recall why race directors use timing chips. Its because they are faster and more accurate than Popsicle sticks. Using personal GPS devices does not in any way improve at all on that huge leap from the view point of someone running a race, vs someone running in a race.
You can’t really do that. That becomes noticeable, especially when splits are identical.
If you remember the Providence 70.3 with that Pacer/Bandit person who was helping the GF or a couple other examples, people can look at splits and see they were either drafting and pacing.
Then again, just like the peloton and similar things, people do cooperate or work in tandem.
As well, for the one person carrying two chips, you don’t want to cross the line and have two names pop up and be one person there, or have them remove the chips and find two.
My point being is RFID is not perfect, can be fairly easily manipulated, generally by at least two people, but you could even do 3 or more where you turn an 140.6 into a much shorter race. You won’t easily take a 10 hr person and make them 9:30, but you could easily take a 9:40 person and make them a 9:34 for example. You could take a 10:30 person and make then close to 10, but that gets a little harder.
Easiest place to drop the time is the swim, especially where you might have a 1:15 swimmer coming out at 1:05.
Tamper proof?
It is perhaps one of the easiest things to fake.
RFIDs are programmable. Most of the ones used at races contain only a serial number and perhaps some other information, but for the most part, they go through the antenna and the antenna reads 123456789 or what ever the number is, and during registration when they “activate the chip” they just associate the number with your name
So how do you fool the system? You get an RFID reader, read your chip and then program a dupe.
Can be done but not as easy as it sounds. I have an RFID reader for my timing chips. It works great with my timing chips because it sends the excitation signal out at the frequency my chips were designed to and reads the response at the frequency they respond with. It will not even recognize my badge (from work) which also uses an RFID chip. The reader needs to be tuned or tunable(?) to that particular chip company’s methodology. There are a couple timing chip companies where aftermarket/third party chips can be purchased but not many. And, RFID (the company) chips can’t be read by Mylaps or Ipico or Jaguar timing systems and vice versa.
Not saying that some person with enough money would not do that but it isn’t as easy as walking into Radio Shack and grabbing some off the shelf parts and creating a quick method of cheating the system. Its already been proven that people will spend a great deal of money and effort to make their results look impressive by some other means than actually performing i.e the dentist from Michigan.
The 2001 NYC Marathon was the last time I did that race. Sitting at the fort at the start line for a couple hours I saw a really skinny, fast-looking dude walk by me with about 6 chips tied to his shoelaces. Seems like a great way to get your friends a sweet BQ time. You would even end up in the same corral because you would all have exactly the same qualifying time. I almost said something to the guy with the chips.
These days I think that kind of thing would be harder to do, with finish line videos and big data crunching able to sort it out, assuming some RD wants to do that.
Last time I downloaded data off the 910 it took a number of minutes to complete. You are over that timing mat in about 1/2 second. Even taking a range of 30 feet or so into account you are still out of that zone well before the watch would finish uploading. Heck it takes longer than that just to pair up with the ANT+ stick and begin the process.
Also, cheating. RFID tags are perfect. They are cheap and completely passive and tamper proof. All the smarts are on the receiving end (the suitcases with computers inside them, attached to the timing mats). With everyone in control of their own timing device it’d be pretty easy to connect a portable computer to a GPS watch and manipulate your data during the race.
Who said anything about downloading the entire data set? You’re making assumptions, all that’s needed is a race mode with the sports watch broadcasting it’s ID number, voila instant race chips for everyone, and gasp, maybe a portable computer at each “mat”. Timing companies might not like it though, 'cause then just about anyone with a laptop could in theory do timing w/o renting timing equipment.
Not necessarily entirely relevant to this discussion, but Swatch do a range of watches with an RFID tag built in so that you can use your watch as a ski pass.
The marathon I’m running on Sunday (Hyderabad, India) apparently isn’t using chips at all, but some sort of camera reading bib numbers. How effective that will prove we will see - personally I can’t see it working at the start.
Cheers, Rich