Funny what a difference a couple years makes

… As well as when fan boys and a “name” are involved.

It was less than a decade ago that Rebekah Keat, along with Amber Neben and Mike Vine sued Hammer Nutrition for their Endurolyte supplements which were show to contain norandrostenedione.

In short, what should have been legitimate supplements were knowingly or unknowingly contaminated with a steroid precursor. I have my own opinions, but I would not put it passed these supplement companies to knowingly contaminate their “clean” supplements to produce results to sell products.

Bek Keat served a two year suspension for her positive test. During this period of time she fought hard to prove her innocence, and took quite a bit of time to finally isolate, document and bring forward what caused her failed test. In short, even though she was found clear, she pretty much served the same sentence because it took her that long to track, trace, investigate and discover the contaminated supplements. In many ways she got lucky that some others wound up in the same boat as her and they were able to find the commonality and isolate not only the Endurolyte, but show that it was contaminated.

But to the point, bans, suspensions, and the like are a part of sports. I see many who are saying that the recent events are unfair, it is innocent until proven guilty, and in fact, that is not necessarily always the case. One only has to look at many states and drunk driving laws, and if you are pulled over and cited, in most states if the cops think they have enough your license is suspended. You may have your day in court a month later, but your license is still suspended until that day.

We have heard the protestations of a man, his legal team, and the fan boys. On the other side there are also teammates, others and questions on what tests may or may not say, and at minimum, I think for the first time because of this filing, much information will finally be shown in a larger light to be understood, argued, debated, and examined.

The other thing that seems to be glossed over in this “witch hunt” as some term it, is the scope. This is not just a question of whether he did or didn’t, it is a much larger scope and when you look at the 15 page letter, the fact that it was a “group” letter, this is more about a larger conspiracy, whether in theory or reality, and this is no longer just about usage, but {edit} ALSO {edit}
about trafficking. Add into this some suspicious activities from the past like “donating” testing machines, inappropriate visits to testing facilities, and this is a much more serious case.

I was not hear when the Hammer Nutrition scandal first broke, but lives were greatly hurt, and wrongly so. Some may rightfully argue that even so, it is the athletes responsibility to know what they take, so part of this is also a friendly reminder… How much do you “trust” the supplements you take. We consumer electrolytes, gels, mixes, tablets, that help us “recover”, go stronger, go longer, but do you really know? A few athletes paid a very heavy price, not because of a desire to cheat, but because they were trying to maximize their edge within the bounds, and unfortunately had a partner who is not as reliable.

While I think a lot of what has come down in the last 24 hours raises questions about “the edge” that an athlete may or may not have gotten outside the rules, the bigger part that I see, is the pervasiveness of a group of team organizers, doctors and individuals to manipulate the system en mass, which is a much larger issue. This becomes more than Tyler Hamilton stating that they did transfussions, or they talked about it, or he saw this or that, and becomes more about a great deal of their testimony pointing to an athlete more at the forefront with the doctors and team leaders to organize and push the usage and keep it masked.

My read through the 15 page letter was more than “did he use” in the past, but rather how involved was he in the propagation.

Everyone deserves their day. Many had to fight hard after the fact, and have an extremely hard uphill battle to show that their tests were wrong, or at least their culpability in the matter was unintentional.

This is much larger.

It is important to note, that this is just a letter. This is the USADA requesting a response and their likely will be a day in court, but actual use is only 1 of the 6 main categories of charges. Possession, Trafficking, Administration, Assisting & Covering Up, are really the more serious in my eyes. I also think they are the ones that become more about testimony, especially by teammates like Hincapie and Hamilton.

Really good points.

The other thing that seems to be glossed over in this “witch hunt” as some term it, is the scope. This is not just a question of whether he did or didn’t, it is a much larger scope and when you look at the 15 page letter, the fact that it was a “group” letter, this is more about a larger conspiracy, whether in theory or reality, and this is no longer just about usage, but not about trafficking. Add into this some suspicious activities from the past like “donating” testing machines, inappropriate visits to testing facilities, and this is a much more serious case.

I think you meant **also **not not?


I was not hear when the Hammer Nutrition scandal first broke, but lives were greatly hurt, and wrongly so. Some may rightfully argue that even so, it is the athletes responsibility to know what they take, so part of this is also a friendly reminder… How much do you “trust” the supplements you take. We consumer electrolytes, gels, mixes, tablets, that help us “recover”, go stronger, go longer, but do you really know? A few athletes paid a very heavy price, not because of a desire to cheat, but because they were trying to maximize their edge within the bounds, and unfortunately had a partner who is not as reliable.

I realize this is off-topic, but I think it’s important and it’s something that never really is talked about. Before I go on, let me say that in the nutritional supplement business, I am sure that their are companies that go way out of their way to be clean and legal, but I am guessing there are others that cut corners.

The sport nutritional and supplement business is a $multi-billion dollar one. Triathletes in particular, are keen followers and consumers. Not sure why that is. It’s fascinating working and walking through sports expos as I have for over 20 years in this sport. Tell an athlete that something will make them 10% faster/better, and you have their ear, and a potential customer right there! That’s all you have to do!Nutrition booths at Expos are almost always guaranteed to be popular.

Given the mass consumption of all manner of nutritional and hydration supplements in this sport, and the fact that this is a completely unregulated business, I suspect that if you tested all 2500 athletes at a given Ironman Triathlon, I think we would be surprised at the number of positive tests that come back - this speaks to the casualness of more than a few manufacturers and suppliers in that business, the low thresholds that are set, and the sensitivity of the current testing.

Just think about that for a minute.

Two things:

  1. What ever happened to the Hammer case? Did it have an ultimate result?

  2. I didn’t think Hincapie or Hamilton testified before USADA, but rather the federal grand jury. I thought I read yesterday that the USADA case did not use any information from the feds. If that stuff is forthcoming and the Hincapie and Hamilton stuff gets added, oh boy…

Bob

Nutrition can scare me at times.

For one I see how contaminated the food supply can be with labeling, whether the “broth” that Tuna is packed in or “natural flavors” can actually contain MSG for example.

I half pay attention, and still think every year I am aware of products that get “pulled” off the shelves because they are found to contain steroids. I think this affects more the body building market than say the endurance market, but I also know what is not talked about is that the impetus for these pulled products is likely a long chain of failed tests at the amateur level likely and slowly a trail begins like what happened with Bek and others.

I can be extremely torn on testing, rules, and sanctions because of this.

At the purest level, one could argue, if one receives a benefit, knowingly or not, that they have received an unfair advantage. At the same time, there is a stigma, as well as were they more of a victim of circumstance or actively engaged in deceit?

Your post was really not off topic, and part of the juxtaposition I wanted to raise where on one hand we have someone who supposedly never tested positive, questions remains whether a lot of the tests were suspicious, yet accusations exist about whether the person was clean or trying to skirt the rules. On the other hand we have growing groups of people who test positive and in many cases it is because of contamination - Are the negative testers really guilty or the positive testers really innocent.

It is an inperfect world, but something while the topic is on the table that is worth noting, competitive athletes, whether AG wanna bees, pros on the cusp, or what have you, performance is not only linked to what we expend in training and effort, but also how we fuel and supplement. As you mix your drinks, chow down those gels or bits, and go through your regiment of supplements in the morning, before bed, or pre-and post workout, do you really know what is in that tablet, power of colored squishy energy you just ate?

Likewise, while some manufacturers probably have less scruples, others themselves can also be victims as their ingredients are sourced overseas, or from some other company down the line that perhaps used to test for quality, but to stay competitive tests less.

While we hear of some of the larger cases of more notable names who fought and paid dearly in stress, frustration and legal and investigation fees to find out the reason why, I think there are a far greater number who just never know.

Ultimately we pay the price. It may not come in the form of a suspension, but can it also come in the form of health consequences down the line from chemicals that may or may not have been intended that were consumed.

Something to think about

Just as you eluded to in your post with many nutrition companies claiming increased % performance, etc. many of these companies are walking a very fine line. They obviously do not want to have found illegal substances in their products, but at the exact same time they want a product that is going to actually have a lasting effect on the user. That way they come back to buy their products, recommend them to friends, etc.

That’s why these booths are so popular at expos, because everyone is looking for an edge. The nutrition companies know this and they leverage that desire with unique marketing, and more importantly proven results.

So back to your post, you are spot on when you speculate about how many positive tests would come back if an entire field was tested.

I will also add that in my observation, few of the nutritional companies have the horsepower to do objective performance studies, nor are they likely to have excellent QA processes.

On the performance testing - these tests can be set up to produce positive results.

I would guess that have wildly varying QA standards and manufacturing methods. I do business with (non-sports) supplement companies. One company’s production plant is run to pharmaceutical standards with hairnets, labcoats, booties, and airlocks to even get into a hallway that is still closed off from production. A different company has open dock doors, and will let me put my hand in a mixer. I had a friend that worked at one place that swept up some spilled powder off the floor and used it.

My conclusion is that you cannot be quite sure of what is in there.

So back to your post, you are spot on when you speculate about how many positive tests would come back if an entire field was tested.

Of course most of these positives would be completely inadvertent - tainted supplements, taking cold medication to close to a race, too much caffeine in the system, therapeutic meds . . and so on. However, if this was a completely surprise test, at a large IM race, and everyone was tested, I am guessing you would also turn-up, a number of AG athletes who had clearly been using PED’s knowingly, for performance gains!! That would be the disturbing part!

I think you really screw up your premise/credibility when you start off with a term about one group that is a considered an insult.

. Before I go on, let me say , Tell an athlete that something will make them 10% faster/better, and you have their ear, and a potential customer right there! That’s all you have to do!.

Nothing like stating the obviuos :0)

So back to your post, you are spot on when you speculate about how many positive tests would come back if an entire field was tested.

Of course most of these positives would be completely inadvertent - tainted supplements, taking cold medication to close to a race, too much caffeine in the system, therapeutic meds . . and so on. However, if this was a completely surprise test, at a large IM race, and everyone was tested, I am guessing you would also turn-up, a number of AG athletes who had clearly been using PED’s knowingly, for performance gains!! That would be the disturbing part!

All you have to do is look at some of the older guys and just ask yourself, is it possible to look like that at that age without some help.

.

All you have to do is look at some of the older guys and just ask yourself, is it possible to look like that at that age without some help.

Dave,

What age can I get a TUE for Testosterone? :slight_smile:

All you have to do is look at some of the older guys and just ask yourself, is it possible to look like that at that age without some help.

.

Hey now… I still look 10 years younger than my age, but my race performance is like 10 years older than my age…

If anything USADA and WADA probably feel bad for me and say… “Hey kid… maybe you wanna… you know… supplement… so that 90 year old lady with the walker does not keep kicking your a$$”

In my defense… That is one tough broad… And eventually… one day… I just might squeeze that sprint finish before her…

At least all the EPO I have been snorting hasn’t helped… Evening Primrose Oil that is…

All you have to do is look at some of the older guys and just ask yourself, is it possible to look like that at that age without some help.

Dave,

What age can I get a TUE for Testosterone? :slight_smile:

Can you get a TUE for this? Easy to find a doc who will give you anything you want.

I have not really seen this for the USAT stuff. Seems more of it is in the IM stuff?

.