At some point, somebody had a post about cycling ability vs running ability, or more specifically, ftp vs running pace. If your FTP is X, you should be able to run Y, and vice versa.
My search skills are apparently not up to the task. Did anyone happen to save or bookmark that thread?
That question itself is quite irrational considering thresholds in these sports wont have any relationship to each other given specificity. The best you can really do is utilize vo2 max to determine what your thresholds are in each individual sport and then compare the relative percentages. Follow this link from who else, Andrew Coggan, which is about estimating vo2 in liters per minute from power. It should be easy to figure out stuff from that equation if you know vo2 max and percent of vo2 max where your running threshold resides.
At some point, somebody had a post about cycling ability vs running ability, or more specifically, ftp vs running pace. If your FTP is X, you should be able to run Y, and vice versa.
My search skills are apparently not up to the task. Did anyone happen to save or bookmark that thread?
Could it be the conversation “riding at X% of FTP will yield a good run” ?
If so, here’s a good one for HIM
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3072212;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
I’ve got some time so I’ll do a quick example. If I (75 kg) run a 60 minute 10 mile I have a calculated vo2 max of 58, and a threshold of 6 minutes per mile. The vo2 max obviously is extremely variable since there running economy and simple threshold strength are being generally estimated. Using the equation from the link vo2(l/min)=.0108xPower(W)+.007xBodyMass(kg) the equation, using my body weight becomes 4.35=.0108W+.525. This gives a vo2max power of 354 watts. Now this is where the high variability comes in, if you can hold 90% of vo2max power as your threshold (which is quite good) this gives a threshold power of 319 watts, if you’re around 80% you will be at 283 watts threshold. Overall the numbers can be extremely variable given how strong you are in each sport, its impossible to say what a given runner would do on a bike and vice versa, all you can really say is what they could do based on vo2 max values and hypothetical threshold values.
Watts/kg ~ meters/sec running.
It’s ballpark because there’s a fair amount of variance in metabolic efficiency and running economy, but it’s not bad.
We discussed the derivation of the rule of thumb in this thread: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=3174674#3174674
I’ve got some time so I’ll do a quick example. If I (75 kg) run a 60 minute 10 mile I have a calculated vo2 max of 58, and a threshold of 6 minutes per mile. The vo2 max obviously is extremely variable since there running economy and simple threshold strength are being generally estimated. Using the equation from the link vo2(l/min)=.0108xPower(W)+.007xBodyMass(kg) the equation, using my body weight becomes 4.35=.0108W+.525. This gives a vo2max power of 354 watts. Now this is where the high variability comes in, if you can hold 90% of vo2max power as your threshold (which is quite good) this gives a threshold power of 319 watts, if you’re around 80% you will be at 283 watts threshold. Overall the numbers can be extremely variable given how strong you are in each sport, its impossible to say what a given runner would do on a bike and vice versa, all you can really say is what they could do based on vo2 max values and hypothetical threshold values.
Funny example - those are almost my exact #'s (VDOT of 57 and FTP of 345 watts).
If you have a Vdot of 57 and an actual threshold on the bike of 350 watts there may be something off, that is a really high threshold number for such a low Vdot, perhaps you got the Vdot score from a run and you’re a much better cyclist relatively. A 57 Vdot should have a vo2max wattage of 350, which would mean your threshold is 100 percent of vo2 max.
If you have a Vdot of 57 and an actual threshold on the bike of 350 watts there may be something off, that is a really high threshold number for such a low Vdot, perhaps you got the Vdot score from a run and you’re a much better cyclist relatively. A 57 Vdot should have a vo2max wattage of 350, which would mean your threshold is 100 percent of vo2 max.It should depend on his weight. 345W and 85kg is a reasonable but nothing special 4 W/kg. Having a Vdot of 57 at 85kg is more impressive than if you had a Vdot of 57 but only weighed 65kg.
I’ve got some time so I’ll do a quick example. If I (75 kg) run a 60 minute 10 mile I have a calculated vo2 max of 58, and a threshold of 6 minutes per mile. The vo2 max obviously is extremely variable since there running economy and simple threshold strength are being generally estimated. Using the equation from the link vo2(l/min)=.0108xPower(W)+.007xBodyMass(kg) the equation, using my body weight becomes 4.35=.0108W+.525. This gives a vo2max power of 354 watts. Now this is where the high variability comes in, if you can hold 90% of vo2max power as your threshold (which is quite good) this gives a threshold power of 319 watts, if you’re around 80% you will be at 283 watts threshold. Overall the numbers can be extremely variable given how strong you are in each sport, its impossible to say what a given runner would do on a bike and vice versa, all you can really say is what they could do based on vo2 max values and hypothetical threshold values.
This is rather eye opening. My FTP should be 527 based on 67ml/kg/min and 95kg. Or am I missing something?
Yes! I screwed that up. Our friend is at least 85kilos by my estimation.
Hi, that would be your vo2 max wattage, what you should be able to hold for about 8 minutes. Now the trick is where your threshold is relative to that vo2 max. 85% is an average estimate I think so 527*.85 is 448. That is high but having a 67 vo2 max at 95 kg is huge, thats 6.36 liters per minute of oxygen uptake, thats olympic rower type levels.
Can’t do this IMO.
Running economy makes all the difference. This is talked about in many writings. You can have a huge v02 max and be a slower runner than someone with a much lower v02 max.
I’d go so far to say anyone can be good on the bike. Not everyone can be good on the run.
Hi, that would be your vo2 max wattage, what you should be able to hold for about 8 minutes. Now the trick is where your threshold is relative to that vo2 max. 85% is an average estimate I think so 527*.85 is 448. That is high but having a 67 vo2 max at 95 kg is huge, thats 6.36 liters per minute of oxygen uptake, thats olympic rower type levels.
Right, I read over the max wattage as opposed to ftp. Well I did used to row, just never stuck around long enough to become olympic 
(not that I would have made it) I did a MAP ramp test thingy where I hit around 510 I think. I don’t train with power at all so that’s why I had no idea what ballpark figure power numbers would be like.
Thanks for the info and apologies for the threadjack.
If you have a Vdot of 57 and an actual threshold on the bike of 350 watts there may be something off, that is a really high threshold number for such a low Vdot, perhaps you got the Vdot score from a run and you’re a much better cyclist relatively. A 57 Vdot should have a vo2max wattage of 350, which would mean your threshold is 100 percent of vo2 max.It should depend on his weight. 345W and 85kg is a reasonable but nothing special 4 W/kg. Having a Vdot of 57 at 85kg is more impressive than if you had a Vdot of 57 but only weighed 65kg.
Nate is more like 72kg. I’ve put out about the same values at 80kg. Can’t speak for Nate’s background, but mine is more biking than running.
That question itself is quite irrational considering thresholds in these sports wont have any relationship to each other given specificity. The best you can really do is utilize vo2 max to determine what your thresholds are in each individual sport and then compare the relative percentages. Follow this link from who else, Andrew Coggan, which is about estimating vo2 in liters per minute from power. It should be easy to figure out stuff from that equation if you know vo2 max and percent of vo2 max where your running threshold resides.
why not just determine your FT in each discipline? Sure, estimating VO2max from power, then estimating FTPs from those is an interesting exercise, but actually determining what you are trying to estimate is the simplest and most accurate approach.
There is too much variability in running economy and stamina to make any other “rule of thumb” approach remotely valid.
Rchung’s method of converting m/s to watts per kilo is pretty decent assuming you have half descent run technique/form and when you get to the high end of watts per kilo and try to convert that to m/s you literally need to be born with the genetics to be a good runner (ex: Brownlee boys). Given a decent engine, you can get your watts per kilo up on the bike bike because it really requires zero technique. But running really fast does require some technique and god given biomechanics!
Rchung’s method of converting m/s to watts per kilo is pretty decent assuming you have half descent run technique/form and when you get to the high end of watts per kilo and try to convert that to m/s you literally need to be born with the genetics to be a good runner (ex: Brownlee boys). Given a decent engine, you can get your watts per kilo up on the bike bike because it really requires zero technique.
Huh? What about Anquetil? That guy had awesome technique. And what about power cranks? Don’t they improve your FT by like 40% through improvements in technique?
But running really fast does require some technique and god given biomechanics!
or light shanks.
Where is perfection when we need him? Since you mentioned Antequil, he has to emerge from a long retirement! Or is he hanging out with Jackmott in a self imposed ban from ST!
But to some degree you have a point. If cycling required zero technique, then we should be able to take every Tier2 Kenyan runner who runs the 10,000 m in mid 27 pace and convert him into a grand tour climber…or maybe we can?
Where is perfection when we need him? Since you mentioned Antequil, he has to emerge from a long retirement! Or is he hanging out with Jackmott in a self imposed ban from ST!
Good question. We need to have an amnesty day where all those who have been banned, either by “the man” or by themselves should come back and grace us with their presence. A “Day of the Banned” if you will.
But to some degree you have a point. If cycling required zero technique, then we should be able to take every Tier2 Kenyan runner who runs the 10,000 m in mid 27 pace and convert him into a grand tour climber…or maybe we can?
Ummm no, because they have very good economy (sweeping generality), which is typically inversely proportional to VO2max. Therefore, they will not have big engines. Of course there is the rare exception, but for the most part, there is a reason.
Ummm no, because they have very good economy (sweeping generality), which is typically inversely proportional to VO2max. Therefore, they will not have big engines. Of course there is the rare exception, but for the most part, there is a reason.
Hmmmm… not sure I agree with that. They have big engines AND very good economy, hence their domination. The fact that they’re not good cyclists is more nurture and less nature.