Simple question really. On an FTP test (standard 20 minute test protocol on a trainer), do you need to stay in aero the whole time? Or do you do whatever you have to do to get every watt you can get? Stand up and mash for a minute or two to catch your breath kind of thing?
i dont find any sort of 20 minute test on a trainer tells me anything about my ftp to start with.
i dont find any sort of 20 minute test on a trainer tells me anything about my ftp to start with.
I use TrainerRoad and as long as I do the same test 5-6 weeks apart under the same circumstances, it tends to suggest an appropriate new FTP from which all future workouts are scaled. I wasn’t really looking for the validity of the 20 minute test vs. other testing protocols. But rather, when doing one or the other, should you attempt to stay in aero 100% of the time or not.
it should be a constant effort. you shouldn’t have giant peaks and valleys.
i grab every watt i can when i am doing an FTP test on the trainer. Always on the powerbeam, so the power profile is very smooth. If nothing else it is something to compare with other FTP tests done under the same conditions.
i can see a value in doing the test in the bars aswell.
What are you doing a TP test for. If its for training then do it the same way you will be training. If you are going to train indoors in an aero position do it that way. If you train outdoors not on the aero position do it that way.
If you dont care about training and just want a high FTP to compare on the internet just lie.
if your goal is to perform well in races where you will be in the aerobars, stay in the aerobars.
but feel free to get out of the saddle in the closing minute or two if you have more left to give that requires it.
i dont find any sort of 20 minute test on a trainer tells me anything about my ftp to start with.
I use TrainerRoad and as long as I do the same test 5-6 weeks apart under the same circumstances, it tends to suggest an appropriate new FTP from which all future workouts are scaled. I wasn’t really looking for the validity of the 20 minute test vs. other testing protocols. But rather, when doing one or the other, should you attempt to stay in aero 100% of the time or not.
do the 2x20 test in TrainerRoad, it is much more real-life.
Remember that an FTP test is not a pass/fail kind of thing. You shouldn’t be doing anything out of the ordinary to try to “find more watts”. If you have a bunch of energy left at the end to push for the last minute you didn’t go hard enough for the previous 19…
i dont find any sort of 20 minute test on a trainer tells me anything about my ftp to start with.
I don’t do power so I am speaking out of total ignorance but I thought that the 20 minute test was by definition your FTP.
Standing up and mashing actually nets me less power on the few occasions when I’ve tried it (like when I am desperately trying to hold on to my target power in the third of four intervals and my legs were shot on the first one). I stay in aero for 100% of the 20-minute blocks on a 2x20 protocol.
No FTP is your 60 min power but can be approximated with 20min power if you do the test correctly.
I see. Thanks for the clarification.
Why do so many people choose to do the 20 min session/test instead of 60 min? Is this just because the 60 min session would not fit well into a training block and so on?
According to Andy Coggan you can actually increase your power output by standing and using the upper body (seems obvious), which can lead to workouts where you appear to put out more than your FTP when including shorter intense bursts.
Basically, if you’re doing these shorter tests you shouldn’t be standing because you can skew the results higher. And if you’re using it to set training and racing zones that you’ll be doing in the aerobars the results will transfer. Similarly some people find hill climbs let them put out their highest wattage periods.
Edit: I see jackmott already said something pretty similar
Well I’ve seen pro triathletes do their FTP tests by staying out of a saddle hammering up a mountain for the majority of it, but I like to do mine in aero the entire time as this is how I will be racing.
Also, for me, a 20’ test usually seems to underestimate my FTP, as I’m either not able to pace correctly or push myself as hard as if I was racing. Usually, I look at my power file from a sprint triathlon and can get a very good grasp on where it is at. Usually either using normalized power from the race or the average power in between the first and last minutes or so.
I see. Thanks for the clarification.
Why do so many people choose to do the 20 min session/test instead of 60 min? Is this just because the 60 min session would not fit well into a training block and so on?
It’s because most people are too wimpy to gut out the full 60, let alone 2 x 20 with short rest in between.
Carmichael has an 8minute all-out test that gives pretty close results (you’ll be way over FTP power for those 8 minutes, then it backcalcluates down to your FTP) but the closer you are to the full 60minutes all-out, the better your test will show your true ability.
Carmichael has an 8minute all-out test that gives pretty close results (you’ll be way over FTP power for those 8 minutes, then it backcalcluates down to your FTP) but the closer you are to the full 60minutes all-out, the better >your test will show your true ability.
Wait a sec, you bad mouth people who do 20 min. instead of 60, then pimp an 8 minute test, which would effectively be a VO2max test rather than a threshold estimate?
I say squeeze every Watt out of it. It’s not training, and it’s not competition. It’s a test. But do forensics after the fact. Couldn’t hold aero position? Heart rate decouple? Overextended and had to “rest.” Use that information to guide your training and to improve upon during the next test. Or to work on your position. But yeah, on the test, just bite, scratch, and claw for every watt.
I have only done the TR 20 minute FTP test. I wonder about the 2 X 20 only insofar that I think most people would hold back on the first 20 in order to kill/survive the second one, so is there really any worth to having 2 sets? It would seem that with one set, you have no choice but to go as hard as you can for the whole thing. (Though TR does ease you into it)
It’s like if you were doing the full 60 minutes test, but stopped for recovery at 30 minutes,
I know that 2 X 20 is a serious staple in cycling, so my question is one of ignorance.
do the 2x20 test in TrainerRoad, it is much more real-life.
Remember that an FTP test is not a pass/fail kind of thing. You shouldn’t be doing anything out of the ordinary to try to “find more watts”. If you have a bunch of energy left at the end to push for the last minute you didn’t go hard enough for the previous 19…
Carmichael has an 8minute all-out test that gives pretty close results (you’ll be way over FTP power for those 8 minutes, then it backcalcluates down to your FTP) but the closer you are to the full 60minutes all-out, the better >your test will show your true ability.
Wait a sec, you bad mouth people who do 20 min. instead of 60, then pimp an 8 minute test, which would effectively be a VO2max test rather than a threshold estimate?
No, I say the closer you are to 60 minutes all-out, the more accurate the test. So 60 minute test > 8 minute test. However, it is true that for most people, it’s a lot easier to re-test more frequently with the 8 min test.
And having done both quite a few times, the 8 minute test works pretty well, and is NOT just a VO2 test. Remember it back-calculates - you don’t just take your 8 min avg power and use that as FTP; the final FTP is a smaller % of that 8 min effort.
I have only done the TR 20 minute FTP test. I wonder about the 2 X 20 only insofar that I think most people would hold back on the first 20 in order to kill/survive the second one, so is there really any worth to having 2 sets? It would seem that with one set, you have no choice but to go as hard as you can for the whole thing. (Though TR does ease you into it)
It’s like if you were doing the full 60 minutes test, but stopped for recovery at 30 minutes,
I know that 2 X 20 is a serious staple in cycling, so my question is one of ignorance.
do the 2x20 test in TrainerRoad, it is much more real-life.
Remember that an FTP test is not a pass/fail kind of thing. You shouldn’t be doing anything out of the ordinary to try to “find more watts”. If you have a bunch of energy left at the end to push for the last minute you didn’t go hard enough for the previous 19…
The shorter tests are all stand-in approximations for the true ‘all-out 60 minute’ test. The closer you get to the full 60 minutes straight up, the closer to FTP reality you will be. The reason these shorter tests exists is because 60 min TRULY all-out is hard to really hit unless you’re doing a race. So the short ones like the 8 and 20 are estimates where you ride faster than FTP for a shorter time, then back-calculate. The theory is that you can test more with less recovery - I like FTP testing, but I’ll admit that I’ve only done the full 60 straight less than 3 times since it’s so hard, whereas I can do the 2 x 20 every week, reproducibly. (In my opinion, the TR 20minute test is def an overestimate, since it pegs your FTP nearly identically to your 20 minute max avg power - what happened to the other 40 minutes? I don’t think the clearing phases are enough to compensate for those missing 40mins @ FTP. At least with the 8 min test, it only uses a smaller % of your 8min avg power as per Carmichaels’ formula.)
But the true reality is 60 mins straight, all-out. The others are (close) approximations, but the closer you get to the full 60, the better the test reflects reality. And yes, the whole point of the longer test (like the 2 x 20) is so you have to pace yourself correctly across the longer time period. It does takes practice to get the pacing correct.