From DFL to Podium - Swimming 101 for the Adult Onset Swimmer

Triathlon Forum
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Thought this blog post might be of interest to some of you.

I started triathlon at age 51 unable to swim a single stroke and with a mortal fear of the water. Four years later I’m much improved (I was second out of the water in my last race). My blog tells the story of how I did it. There’s also a link to my recent interview on Kevin Koskella’s TriSwimCoach podcast.

Definitely not boasting - I am still no more than an average swimmer - just sharing some ideas which may help others. Specifically, had I known then what I know now, I’m thinking I could have achieved the same results in two years or less.

Some of my thoughts will be controversial and will be disputed by real swim coaches (for example, the minimal importance of the kick) - my method includes multiple shortcuts. But it’s what worked for me, I hope it works for you.

Enjoy.

http://steve-mallard.blogspot.com/2016/10/from-dfl-to-podium-swimming-101-for-non.html

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Thought this blog post might be of interest to some of you.
I started triathlon at age 51 unable to swim a single stroke and with a mortal fear of the water. Four years later I’m much improved (I was second out of the water in my last race). My blog tells the story of how I did it. There’s also a link to my recent interview on Kevin Koskella’s TriSwimCoach podcast.
Definitely not boasting - I am still no more than an average swimmer - just sharing some ideas which may help others. Specifically, had I known then what I know now, I’m thinking I could have achieved the same results in two years or less.
Some of my thoughts will be controversial and will be disputed by real swim coaches (for example, the minimal importance of the kick) - my method includes multiple shortcuts. But it’s what worked for me, I hope it works for you.
Enjoy.
http://steve-mallard.blogspot.com/...ing-101-for-non.html

Steve - That’s a pretty good blog post you’ve written, and this thread should be getting more attention than it is. I’m guessing this may be b/c you gave a link rather than just summarizing your experience in this thread. Anyway, a few comments from a lifelong swimmer:

  1. Since you say in the blog that you’ve gotten down to a 30-ish min 1500m swim, I have to assume that when you say that you were “second out of the water at my last race”, you mean 2nd in your age group, not 2nd overall. I don’t think this is splitting hairs there’s huge diff between the two, since 2nd OA in your avg Oly race would be around 18-ish rather than 30-ish. You might want to clarify this point. :slight_smile:
  2. Regarding the swing-arm recovery vs the bent elbow, if you watch the Oly 10K OWS, you’ll see lots of the traditional high bent elbow recoveries. Sure, some OW swimmers use the swing-arm style but so do some pool swimmers. I think it is all a matter of what feels most comfortable to the swimmer him/her-self.

Men’s 10K at Rio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQY6EoYVRxs

Women’s 10K at Rio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQY6EoYVRxs

  1. Not sure Zoomers are best choice for AOS as they’re really made for swimmers who know how to kick. Prob one of the long-bladed fins is a better choice for the AOS crowd.

Notwithstanding these comments, pretty good report. Congrats on your swimming improvement!!!

Cheers,

Eric

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Hi Eric - thanks for the note.

Yes, 218 views of my blog so far today.

Re: your questions:

  1. yes, I certainly meant 2nd out of water in my AG - no intention to mislead. Only 13 in my AG - but a couple of years ago I would’ve been a solid 13th! -)
  2. thanks for the videos. Maybe it’s just a question of personal style.
  3. interesting comment on fins. I always stayed away from the long bladed fins on the advice of a coach (said they made things “too easy”). Maybe I’ll revisit this.

Thanks for taking the time to write.
SM

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Hi Eric - thanks for the note.
Yes, 218 views of my blog so far today.
Re: your questions:

  1. yes, I certainly meant 2nd out of water in my AG - no intention to mislead. Only 13 in my AG - but a couple of years ago I would’ve been a solid 13th! -)
  2. thanks for the videos. Maybe it’s just a question of personal style.
  3. interesting comment on fins. I always stayed away from the long bladed fins on the advice of a coach (said they made things “too easy”). Maybe I’ll revisit this.
    Thanks for taking the time to write.
    SM[/quote

Wow, 218 views, surprised that you haven’t gotten more posts on this thread. Anyway, one other Q that came to mind: what kind of time would you swim for a 500 scy, or 400 scm, time trial??? The reason i ask is that OW swims vary greatly in their actual distance and conditions (against or with current, roughness of the water, etc), e.g. I’ve done 1500 m OW swims where I came out in 14:00 (well under the 1500 scm WR of 14:08!!!) and in 30:00, vs my best 1650 scy of 20:37, which rested and all-out in a Masters meet. On average, my 1500 m swims come out around 19:30 so generally they are a bit short and/or with a current assist. Shoot, I remember two 2000m swims where I came out in 20:04 one year and 21:00 the next year, again close to or under WR pace, except that when I went 20:04 a former UNC D swimmer went 17:04. :slight_smile: So, the moral of the story is you can really only measure swim improvement by your times in the pool not in OW (though you can compare the fastest OA swimmer to get an idea of how you did.) The 500 scy/400 scm is a nice distance to use b/c it’s long enough to measure endurance but short enough such that you’re not exhausted afterwards. Also, the 500/400 are standard scy/scm distances so you could compare yourself to other Masters swimmers across the country and around the world. If you watch the Rio women’s 10K race, you’ll notice that they mention that the girl who eventually ended up winning the 10,000 m swim went a 4:03 for 400 lcm (50-m pool) to take 2nd at the '15 World Champs. While Ledeckie won the 200, 400, and 800 at Rio, that was only 2nd time any girl has done this, since generally the 200 is more of a middle D race, and D swimming starts at 400 m/500 y.

One other observation: it will be interesting to see if your Vasa workouts help your swimming power. The poster “lightheir” swears that he went from swimming around 1:45/100 yd down to 1:25/100 yd for 100 repeats on about 15 sec rest, mainly through a big winter of hard work on the Vasa. You’ll have to report back in 3-4 months and tell us how it has worked for you. :slight_smile:

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Nice blog and nice job! I think it’s remarkable you’ve come this far. I’m also an aos swimmer and besides occasionally bothering guys like Eric and Ken L, I found that the Mike Bottom and Dave Durden videos on YouTube helped me out a lot. Total immersion teaches nice smooth technique but it wasn’t for me (that may be because I’m a wannabe sprinter).

I hope (and think) your blog will motivate other aos swimmers to stick with it.

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Nice blog and nice job! I think it’s remarkable you’ve come this far. I’m also an aos swimmer and besides occasionally bothering guys like Eric and Ken L, I found that the Mike Bottom and Dave Durden videos on YouTube helped me out a lot. Total immersion teaches nice smooth technique but it wasn’t for me (that may be because I’m a wannabe sprinter).
I hope (and think) your blog will motivate other aos swimmers to stick with it.

You are NOT a “wannabe sprinter”!!! Any guy in his late 30s who can go 50.X for 100 yd free is a real, honest to God sprinter. You and Ken are the poster children for fast AOS!!! You’re just so modest, but then that is a very admirable quality.

Speaking of Mike Bottom, I picked up a copy of"Swimming for Dummies" at the book store a few weeks ago, and it happens to be written by him, which I thought was pretty remarkable for a “Dummies” book. Anyway, reason I bring this up is that Bottom says that even the majority of elite swimmers get very little propulsion from their kick in freestyle. I thought this was a very interesting comment from a coach of his stature. I didn’t buy the book but that one sentence on kicking stuck with me. Of course, that “very little” could be diff between 1st and 8th in a world class 100 m free final. :slight_smile:

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Hi Eric - 500 yards in the pool is my “benchmark” set - my best is 9:35 but I can do 9:45 pretty consistently.

Yes, looking forward to seeing what impact a hard winter on the Vasa will do. The posts by lighheir were a big reason I got one!

Thanks again for the comments!

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But now it’s time to get serious. Every trip to the pool should have a purpose.

Drills are the bane of every swimmer’s life but they are so necessary. This is where you continue to reinforce good habits and good form. There’s a million of these (drop me a line if you’d like a list of my favorites).

Every drill should have a purpose for you. It doesn’t matter what your favorite drills are, or if they worked for you. What matters is if a particular drill will solve a need of the individual swimmer. That’s what a coach and individualized instruction is for.

Second, high intensity training is critical - in other words, sprints. Buy yourself a swim watch and time yourself over 50m, 100m, 500m, 1000m.

Half of those, obviously, aren’t sprints. I think what you might be referring to is “intervals”. This might address one of the most important things you forgot: “swim your ass off in practice”. Of course, if all you want to do is get someone comfortable in the water (see Total Immersion), then it’s not so important.

Horizontal alignment – kicking certainly plays a part here. Unless you kick, you will likely suffer the dreaded “sinking legs” syndrome resulting in a terribly inefficient head up/butt down position. But wetsuits go a very long way towards solving this problem – and remember, all we’re trying to do here is become efficient wetsuit swimmers.

And what happens when a swim is not wetsuit-legal? Looking at your swim video, you have the dreaded “sinking legs” syndrome, not to mention a bad scissors kick (due perhaps to lack of roll/extension between hand entry and initiation of the catch).

Kicking has nothing to do with horizontal alignment: it’s all about using the muscles in your back, butt, and hamstrings to maintain high legs. I don’t kick at all (other than for balance and timing), yet my legs are at the surface, since I use the aforementioned muscle groups.

I will add that if you are going ~2:00/100m for a 1500m, and your stroke rate is over 60, I don’t think your pull is highly effective (you might not have the high elbow pull you think you do), especially if that is with a wetsuit.

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  1. Regarding the swing-arm recovery vs the bent elbow, if you watch the Oly 10K OWS, you’ll see lots of the traditional high bent elbow recoveries. Sure, some OW swimmers use the swing-arm style but so do some pool swimmers. I think it is all a matter of what feels most comfortable to the swimmer him/her-self.

  2. Not sure Zoomers are best choice for AOS as they’re really made for swimmers who know how to kick. Prob one of the long-bladed fins is a better choice for the AOS crowd.

Notwithstanding these comments, pretty good report. Congrats on your swimming improvement!!!

Cheers,

Eric

Congrats to the OP on the successful improvement. Keep it up!

Question for Eric:

  1. Is it possible that the swing arm style is something that helps to speed turnover and replace a high elbow catch that is not pulling a lot of water? Could this style also be what causes a break in timing of the upper and lower body with the kick (scissor kick)?

  2. I would highly recommend the Alpha fin for adult onset swimmers. The fin is a short blade but uses the entire top layer of the foot as a blade. The fin is buoyant and soft, just the right mix to make you work, but help to teach a swimmer better body position. The asymmetric profile of the Alpha fin helps the fin track more naturally (up and down) and allows the swimmer to continue normal kick tempo. Alpha Fin or the stiffer Alpha Pro

jake

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  1. Regarding the swing-arm recovery vs the bent elbow, if you watch the Oly 10K OWS, you’ll see lots of the traditional high bent elbow recoveries. Sure, some OW swimmers use the swing-arm style but so do some pool swimmers. I think it is all a matter of what feels most comfortable to the swimmer him/her-self.
  2. Not sure Zoomers are best choice for AOS as they’re really made for swimmers who know how to kick. Prob one of the long-bladed fins is a better choice for the AOS crowd.
    Notwithstanding these comments, pretty good report. Congrats on your swimming improvement!!!
    Cheers,
    Eric

Congrats to the OP on the successful improvement. Keep it up!
Question for Eric:
2. Is it possible that the swing arm style is something that helps to speed turnover and replace a high elbow catch that is not pulling a lot of water? Could this style also be what causes a break in timing of the upper and lower body with the kick (scissor kick)?
3. I would highly recommend the Alpha fin for adult onset swimmers. The fin is a short blade but uses the entire top layer of the foot as a blade. The fin is buoyant and soft, just the right mix to make you work, but help to teach a swimmer better body position. The asymmetric profile of the Alpha fin helps the fin track more naturally (up and down) and allows the swimmer to continue normal kick tempo. Alpha Fin or the stiffer Alpha Pro
jake

I think the swing arm style is mostly a matter of personal preference, perhaps related to the swimmer’s shoulder flexibility. For me, the high elbow recovery has always felt more comfortable but others obv disagree. I don’t think that either style is necessarily faster than the other, and, since a lot of very fast swimmers with zero scissors kick use the swing style, don’t think it is related to scissor kicking problems per se. I think scissor kicking generally results from very inefficient breathing, and the desire to have a longer time to breath.

BTW, I have a pair of your Alpha fins, which I bought on the recommendation of a fast HS swimmer. Now this may sound odd but I only feel comfortable swimming or kicking backstroke in these fins, b/c when I swim free or fly in them, they are so buoyant that I feel *too high in the water, *e.g. my feet in the fins float right on the very surface of the water and I can not get them below the surface, which feels pretty unnatural and odd to me. OTOH, I know most AOS would kill for this feeling so, by all means, get a pair of Alpha fins. I’ll keep just using them for backstroke. :slight_smile:

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Horizontal alignment – kicking certainly plays a part here. Unless you kick, you will likely suffer the dreaded “sinking legs” syndrome resulting in a terribly inefficient head up/butt down position. But wetsuits go a very long way towards solving this problem – and remember, all we’re trying to do here is become efficient wetsuit swimmers.

Kicking has nothing to do with horizontal alignment: it’s all about using the muscles in your back, butt, and hamstrings to maintain high legs. I don’t kick at all (other than for balance and timing), yet my legs are at the surface, since I use the aforementioned muscle groups.

Ken, I think it’s more true to say that kicking doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with horizontal alignment.

There certainly are folks, some of them quite good as far as masters swimmers go; who use their kick to stay horizontal. In my experience these are the same folks who literally can’t get across the pool when swimming with a band and no buoy.

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My background with swimming is dangerously similar.

I was pulled from my family pool and given the kiss of life when I was 5. While I could swim, I was never confident in the water or a swimmer at all. I could swim to the raft at the beach and splash around, but the raft was always further away than I would have liked.

In my early 30’s a running buddy got me into swimming. He claimed there was too much snow on the roads, to run, so we hit the pool. Embarrassing is an understatement. I could not accept that I was such a bad swimmer so I worked on it all winter.

In a similar fashion, I went the Total Immersion way (back when Terry gave away his ideas for free on the old Rec.Sport.Triathlon discussion group) and the simple concept of reducing drag was the key for me. I sped up a huge amount in next to no time. I went from 30+ min for an Oly swim to sub 23 in just a few months. I eventually got as low as 21 minutes before I switched to IM distance.

While I agree that with swimming, technique IS the key, I don’t think you really made it clear WHY it’s the key. With running, you run on a relatively solid surface, getting good traction so “more” running is mostly what you need to get better. Similarly with riding, it’s sorta the same, but due to wind resistance at higher speed, there is a limit to how effective “more” will be. As demonstrated by triathletes use of aero bars on tri bikes, the technique of the aero position can get use going just as fast as a good cyclist, with less energy, or at the same power output, go faster. This wind resistance hints at why swimming technique is so important.

Due to the density of water being soooooo much greater than air, it’s vital to reduce drag to go faster when swimming. It takes a lot of energy to push all that heavy water out of the way. By being more streamlined in the water, you have less water to push out of the way. It’s that simple. It is only with good technique that one gets faster at swimming. There are two vital areas of concern. First is to reduce drag as much as possible. Primarily this comes from good body position. If you’re not able to maintain a good position, you’ll just go slower and slower. Once you’ve got that sorted, and only then, can you worry about power. And it’s not so much about power generation, it’s about how efficiently you can get that power into the water.

It’s like a tug boat. They have huge amounts of power, but because the are unstreamlined lumps in the water, even at full power, they won’t go very fast. A long skinny rowing skiff, with less than 1hp rower in charge, will go surprisingly quickly, simply because drag is reduced so much. Reducing drag is key, then work on improving (effective) power.

yes, it’s important to have good technique in the water, but it’s important to know why it’s so important.

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there are advantages and disadvantages to various fins.

my coach starts people with larger fins to get them up to speed (used to seeing how effective kicking can be) then moves them to smaller stiffer fins. Short stiff fins encourage ankle flexibility and that leads to actual propulsion.

I use fins in the pool (for drills and such) and kick during training. However, in open water races (particularly in a wetsuit) I don’t bother kicking. I do a lazy half assed 6 beat kick but mainly to keep me steering straight. for me, IM is pretty much a 3800metre pull set :slight_smile: And I get 1:02 doing that so all good. I only kick for the last 200 metres and that’s just to get some blood back in my legs for the run to T1.

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In a similar fashion, I went the Total Immersion way (back when Terry gave away his ideas for free on the old Rec.Sport.Triathlon discussion group) and the simple concept of reducing drag was the key for me. I sped up a huge amount in next to no time. I went from 30+ min for an Oly swim to sub 23 in just a few months. I eventually got as low as 21 minutes before I switched to IM distance.

You are the first person in my 6 yrs on ST ever to have anything positive to say about TI in relation to actually going faster. Most TI swimmers never seem to get under 30 for 1500 scm. You appear to be a real outlier. :slight_smile:

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Clearly I am special. According to TriSpouse, I’m one more concussion away from going to the Special Olympics.

But seriously, I learned virtually everything I know about swimming from TI. Regardless of the details of what he said (maybe I was the only one to every understand his “pressing the buoy” concept that he later changed to “pressing the T” (or was it the other way around?), I grasped the idea of smooth efficient strokes and that alone took me a long way from barely staying alive in the swim, to relishing it. Now if only he’s do TI cycling and running, I might stand a chance.

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Clearly I am special. According to TriSpouse, I’m one more concussion away from going to the Special Olympics.

But seriously, I learned virtually everything I know about swimming from TI. Regardless of the details of what he said (maybe I was the only one to every understand his “pressing the buoy” concept that he later changed to “pressing the T” (or was it the other way around?), I grasped the idea of smooth efficient strokes and that alone took me a long way from barely staying alive in the swim, to relishing it. Now if only he’s do TI cycling and running, I might stand a chance.

I think maybe you had sufficient talent, being a former pro skier and all that :), that you were able to grasp the ideas of smooth strokes even from TI; I’m guessing you prob would have progressed fast under any decent swim instructor’s tutelage. I see this every single day in the pool how some people just catch right on, but then many struggle for years and just never can quite get it.

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Clearly I am special. According to TriSpouse, I’m one more concussion away from going to the Special Olympics.

But seriously, I learned virtually everything I know about swimming from TI. Regardless of the details of what he said (maybe I was the only one to every understand his “pressing the buoy” concept that he later changed to “pressing the T” (or was it the other way around?), I grasped the idea of smooth efficient strokes and that alone took me a long way from barely staying alive in the swim, to relishing it. Now if only he’s do TI cycling and running, I might stand a chance.

I think maybe you had sufficient talent, being a former pro skier and all that :), that you were able to grasp the ideas of smooth strokes even from TI; I’m guessing you prob would have progressed fast under any decent swim instructor’s tutelage. I see this every single day in the pool how some people just catch right on, but then many struggle for years and just never can quite get it.

You could be right. I had a very well developed sense of body awareness (I had hundreds and hundreds of hours of video analysis of my skiing so got fantastic feedback). Even today, I think very few people get that. We hear the coach say “do this” and we make our own muddled attempt at it and think we got it. Only with video feedback can we actually connect what we feel like we’re doing and what it actually looks like. For many people it’s a revelation to see themselves on video.

When I first got into tri, I got hold of a video camera and video’d my buddy riding and running and he did the same for me. We used that to refine our bike positions and check out our running. For me, skiing on video was mid 80’s and tri was early 90’s.

Maybe I was better at uptaking Terry’s concepts, but I couldn’t have done it without him providing the tuition. Rightly or wrongly, I credit TI with making the most improvement in my swimming and will continue to give Terry props for that.

Your mileage may vary…

18

Clearly I am special. According to TriSpouse, I’m one more concussion away from going to the Special Olympics.

But seriously, I learned virtually everything I know about swimming from TI. Regardless of the details of what he said (maybe I was the only one to every understand his “pressing the buoy” concept that he later changed to “pressing the T” (or was it the other way around?), I grasped the idea of smooth efficient strokes and that alone took me a long way from barely staying alive in the swim, to relishing it. Now if only he’s do TI cycling and running, I might stand a chance.

I think maybe you had sufficient talent, being a former pro skier and all that :), that you were able to grasp the ideas of smooth strokes even from TI; I’m guessing you prob would have progressed fast under any decent swim instructor’s tutelage. I see this every single day in the pool how some people just catch right on, but then many struggle for years and just never can quite get it.

You could be right. I had a very well developed sense of body awareness (I had hundreds and hundreds of hours of video analysis of my skiing so got fantastic feedback). Even today, I think very few people get that. We hear the coach say “do this” and we make our own muddled attempt at it and think we got it. Only with video feedback can we actually connect what we feel like we’re doing and what it actually looks like. For many people it’s a revelation to see themselves on video.

When I first got into tri, I got hold of a video camera and video’d my buddy riding and running and he did the same for me. We used that to refine our bike positions and check out our running. For me, skiing on video was mid 80’s and tri was early 90’s.
Maybe I was better at uptaking Terry’s concepts, but I couldn’t have done it without him providing the tuition. Rightly or wrongly, I credit TI with making the most improvement in my swimming and will continue to give Terry props for that.
Your mileage may vary…

Ya, body awareness is crucial in swimming. I swam my first 25 at age 5 so I’m definitely a lifelong swimmer but I refined my stroke even into my mid-late 20s by copying some national level swimmers who were swimming in our small Masters group. When I first saw myself on video, my stroke looked just like I thought it did. I’ve never had any problems visualizing how to make proper strokes in swimming, or in tennis, golf, basketball, etc. I still always watch any good swimmers in the pool, just to refresh my mental imagery.