Hello,
Just curious. Why cannot a lugged frame be made using titanium tubing? I’ve always heard it cannot, but never heard the reason. I’m assuming galvanic reaction, but what about Ti tubing, stainless lugs and silver solder. All of these material are relatively inert, although galvanic corrosion can do amazing things in the right (wrong) circumstances.
Thanks,
Styrrell
The other question is “WHY would you build a lugged Ti frame?” or “WHY build a stainless lugged frame”
Would a lugged frame that you describe be any good? Which brings up why nobody builds a stainless bike. Stainless ins’t as strong (in general) as a top shelf CroMo steel, so I don’t think it would make for a very good bike.
I would also be curious to hear from some of the chemistry types on whether or not the idea would work, though…
I’m not sure if you can build a brazed and lugged frame but you could always bond the titanium tubes into lugs. But as another poster mentioned - why bother? Lugs add weight and come in a narrow range of angles (ever seen a lugged frame with a 78+ degree seat angle?).
Lugged steel frame in 78? Yup. Old school QR had a lugged seat cluster if I recollect correctly. Subzero or superform model???
You can braze a titanium frame. Pino Moroni used to build his ti bikes that way. As a Detroiter with a history of supporting the Italian Nat’l and Olympic teams, his bikes have been used in nearly every discipline.
The question you didn’t ask but got lots of answers for was the “why”. Titanium can be had now in multishaped and butted tubes. The need for lugs has really past for those looking for structural improvements in the bike frame. Tough to beat the asthetics of a lugged bike though.
Really the lugs have promise for advanced steels like Aermet 100 and other “non-butted” tubes. These tubes can be made only in straight guages, and while they can be made very thin, you run into crush issues when the tubes get 0.3mm thick. Now, if you could come up with a way to externally butt the tubing a la a “lug” you may be able to take advantage of these materials.
One another note, non-ferrous materials like Lithium-Aluminum and Pure and Alloyed Beryllium are very very tough to weld, Beryllium is even deadly, so a way to continue the lugged style of assembly has merit and need, however these two examples cannot be brazed. A Beryllium tubeset can be made that weighs less than 450 grams. The specific stiffness (modulus divided by density) is the highest of any metal on the face of the earth. It rivals any composite and even bests natures finest material (spider webs). It is over 200 times as expensive as aluminum however. It has strength numbers that are on the charts at: 40 KSI ultimate and 44 MSI modulus, but it is 5 times less dense than steel. The lightest aluminum tubeset comes from Easton and is further machined and refined to just under 700 grams creating a 800 gram frame. By comparison, a Beryllium bike should be able to come together at around 600 grams.
Yikes, I know, more info than you care to know about. I love the subject of materials science and find that only the very tip of the iceberg has been uncovered in terms of what is possible.
-SD
no real reason you could not make a ti frame with lugs, a main reason people have gone to tig welding is less clean up,no restrections on the frame angles as with lugs,yes you can build a stainless bike,i did years ago,looked great,weighed the same as crome moly frame. A good piont was made about Aeromet tubing,but not many builders seem to build with it.
Superdave,i would think that Berylliun would be able to be brazed/silver soldered(i am sure i have silver soldered some),maybe just that alloy can not, safety issues might keep it from ever being used,you sure do not want to go grinding on it!
Can the Berylium tubing be chemically bonded with lugs? Apart from the issues of fatigue and the like specifically at the lug, would the Be fail in a corrosive environment like sweat and gel?
Would a lugged frame that you describe be any good? Which brings up why nobody builds a stainless bike. Stainless ins’t as strong (in general) as a top shelf CroMo steel, so I don’t think it would make for a very good bike.
A frame builder in the States was making stainless frames a few years ago. Unfortunately can’t remember who or if they still make them, but they had a bike reviewed in MBA.
duncan
The lightest aluminum tubeset comes from Easton and is further machined and refined to just under 700 grams creating a 800 gram frame. By comparison, a Beryllium bike should be able to come together at around 600 grams.
And Beryllium frame has been done too! Probably getting on for 10 years ago, some American bike company showed a mtb beryllium frame at Interbike (I think).
duncan
The main reason for titanium is light weight and corrosion resistance, adding silver-brass would be the weak point, Tig welding is by far the cleanest joint.
Interloc made stainless frames, as did a few others. I forget who made the tubing, but they discontinued it, so its not so much a matter of can it be made, but can you get the tubes.
Just checked, it was American Bicycles who made the beryllium frame, in 1993. Here’s some details:
“Models are listed as the new M-15 (15” stays?) frame for $720, M-16 or Comp Lite frame @ $925 and the new Comp Lite Beryllium for the astonishing sum of $26,000. The Beryllium bike was made with Beryllium tubing (top, seat, down, seat stays, chain stays) bonded into aluminum lugs. The bike was developed with Electrofusion Corp. in Fremont California. Much of the labor was donated by the company since there was some spare time due to the decline in Cold War business for the company. Beryllium’s atomic number is 4 just after Hydrogen, Helium and Lithium but the specific modulus (stiffness to density ratio) is seven times better than steel, titanium or aluminum, which are all essentially equal. The first frame was overbuilt and weighed 2.5 pounds. Of that, the Beryllium tubing was one pound (including one ounce chain stays), 1.25 pounds of aluminum lugs and 4 ounces of adhesive"
duncan
The why is really inconsequencial, I was just curious. Way back in my mind I have always wanted “the ultimate bike”. If I was going to build a bike just for training and group rides, I would love to have a classic custom steel lugged bike. To my mind nothing comes close to the beauty of a columbine, moon, baylis, etc. It just got me to thinking if you can combine the beauty of an old school classic with modern materials. Also, lugged bikes can be made by almost anyone with a little desire and willingness to take some time. Tig welding takes quite a bit of practice and skill.
Styrrell
yes. the american bicycle berylium was perhaps the ultimate end product of the heyday of mtn bikes. the bike is in the hands of a japanese collector, last i heard. those goofs also produced a series of aluminum " drillium" bikes, with gigantic holes all thru the frame. at the time marzocchi susp forks had lower legs that also had a series of large diameter holes in them, and you know it looked sorta cool. we used to have a pic of none other than bob roll sitting on one from the chequamegon someplace around here, from back when he was riding off-road for lemond’s team and promoting his book.
columbus made “metax” stainless tubing. the most prolific builder of it in the states was rhygin cycles. those bikes also looked insanely good, and were in fact insanely good. rhygin became frustrated with columbus’ lack of promotion for the tubing tho, and ultimately folded.
last i checked waterford still listed stainless as an option - at least for some parts of the bike. i think they have a pic in their gallery. i would bet you could find some stash of metax someplace, if you were to google the hell out of the issue. 
it would be worth it, i think.
i think the main reason nobody has made a ti lugged bike ( assuming it IS possible, which i assume it is . . . . ) is the fact that to do so you would first have to get lugs made for the larger diameter tubes. quite an expense, for a project that really has no practical value.
"I would love to have a classic custom steel lugged bike. "
Hello,
One comment is based on metallurgy and is not subject to interpretation and the other is highly subjective. Lugged frames have been made with little more that a torch, a drillpress, and some files. Welding requires much more costly equipment and skill, particularly for thin walled tubing. I know of two people who have built lugged frames just for themselves which were perfectly ridable. I have never heard of anyone who has never welded and managed to successfully tig weld a frame on the first try.
Styrrell
I do not belive silver-brass is you weak point a tube will bend or buckle before the joint will fail,maybe not in every case or every tube,i know because with the joints i tested the tube went before the joint.
Rhygin was in fact one of the builders, in fact tehy still have $500 of mine they kept when they folded. The American Beryllium bike I’m aware of, but what a waste of material when heavy lugs were used to join it. Something like a Trek (ugh!) or Colnago carbon fiber lug used to join the flat rolled Be tubes into a frame would be much lighter and easier to create in different sizes.
Lugged construction can be done pretty easily, I’m confident enough in my torch wielding skills that I’d ride a bike I put together. I don’t think I’d t.i.g. a bike and ride it, but I drive a car that welded together using a m.i.g. welder.
-SD
I heard the MTB beryllium frame had been stolen a few years ago.