Just curious - for those of you who find zone 2 HR running ‘too easy’
**- How are you calculating your zone 2 HR? **
- And are you running for more than 80 minutes at a time regularly for these ‘too easy’ runs?
- And are you considering the HR as an avg over the whole run, or are you just counting short sections?
Just curious, as I myself have never ever had an issue with zone 2 being too easy - if anything it’s too hard, and I come from a pure running background!
Don Fink’s HIM book uses a Z2 HR definition of 75-85% HRmax, which for a 40 year old male who’s has a typical 180HRmax, means zone 2 is HR135-153. Seriously, I only crack 135HR in the peak weeks prior to taper for my long runs, and when I’m in shape, 135-140 is close to a 7:20min mile and I’m not even a AG podium type runner.
I’ve seen some calculators that peg z2 really low as well online; one of them pegs zone 2 in the range where I actually work out (118-125 for me!), perhaps that’s why some find it too easy. Also, I know some folks only check their HRM on the hard stuff like climbs, and then limited themselves to z2 even when it’s ok to get your HR a bit higher in training for those sections (since you have a downhill afterwards where HR will be lower.) I can’t help but think the majority of folks who say “zone 2 is too easy” either just don’t run long enough (like rarely 60+mins) or have the wrong zone calculation numbers.
Just curious, as it’s hard for me to envision runners who are really holding z3 for 90+ minutes all the time in training when by Don Fink, z3 is 86-89% of your maxHR when I find that’s the HR zone I end up averaging at when I crush myself in all-out half marathons (I average about 151-2HR in an allout HM, whereas Don Fink’s z3 for a 180HRmax is 154-162, which is thus higher than my HM race pace. And I definitely go all-out, no holding back at all, nearly blacking out when I finish usually.)
zone 2 = feels like not a jog, but also doesn’t feel like near-tempo or tempo. Coming from running background, this will be way easier to peg than HR.
RPE FTW
I actually have no problem gauging my HR after all those years of running, and yes, that’s pretty much where it lands in terms of perceived effort. I was asking more for those who say that z2 is ‘too easy’ for them and it feels like they’re not really working out, or have to slow themselves down a lot. As said, I suspect they’re just not going long enough, like all runs <40mins, and/or using a really soft z2 measure.
I agree with you. Zone 2 for <40 mins can feel ridiculously easy. But obviously great way to build volume without accumulating excessive fatigue. For 2 hours, can be a medium hard workout.
which for a 40 year old male who’s has a typical 180HRmax
Your zone 2 may be off if you find it difficult.
There is really no such thing as a typical max heart rate. From what I gather from the quote above, Peak Maximal Heart Rate (Straight Percentage Method) is being referenced to find max hr. This is a poor method to determine zones as it varies + or - 10 to 12 bpm for people in the same age and gender categories.This can be fine if utilized for sedentary individuals just getting into fitness as I would not do a test more strenuous than the YMCA step or Rockport walk with someone just starting out.
For an athlete, I always prefer doing a test to find your individual zones such as the 30 min run test. Your average HR for the last 20 min will be close to your LTHR and you can set up your zones from there. I am not saying this is the most accurate way of doing things out there as there are many variables at play. However, it will be way more accurate and beneficial than zones based off of Peak Maximal Heart rate.
In my experience it all has to do with fatigue…after working a night shift and sleeping through the day my HR will be “up” compared to when I am well rested and sleeping normally. If you go just based on hr I think you will be missing the whole picture. On flat runs you could go by pace, which you may find more steady than a hr that can fluctuate.
In my experience it all has to do with fatigue…after working a night shift and sleeping through the day my HR will be “up” compared to when I am well rested and sleeping normally. If you go just based on hr I think you will be missing the whole picture. On flat runs you could go by pace, which you may find more steady than a hr that can fluctuate.
Totally agree. I both pace and heart rate utilization are key for success. It all depends on the situation.
Like heart rate though, you wouldn’t base your pace off of “typical max pace” for someone your age. You test it. Basing heart rate of a generalized theoretical number is silly.
which for a 40 year old male who’s has a typical 180HRmax
Your zone 2 may be off if you find it difficult.
There is really no such thing as a typical max heart rate. From what I gather from the quote above, Peak Maximal Heart Rate (Straight Percentage Method) is being referenced to find max hr. This is a poor method to determine zones as it varies + or - 10 to 12 bpm for people in the same age and gender categories.This can be fine if utilized for sedentary individuals just getting into fitness as I would not do a test more strenuous than the YMCA step or Rockport walk with someone just starting out.
For an athlete, I always prefer doing a test to find your individual zones such as the 30 min run test. Your average HR for the last 20 min will be close to your LTHR and you can set up your zones from there. I am not saying this is the most accurate way of doing things out there as there are many variables at play. However, it will be way more accurate and beneficial than zones based off of Peak Maximal Heart rate.
I’ve tested my HR a good number of times in all-out standalone 5ks and 10ks and it’s pretty much 178-182, every time recently. (Up to 185+ when I was younger.)
Again, I’m not asking because I’m unfamiliar with proper zone training for myself - I’m just curious for those who say z2 is too easy (not me.)
I will ask this…also understanding that it isn’t a precise measure.
Do you consider it a zone 2 run if you finish and spend the whole run in zone 2 or if you just finish with an avg. heart rate within zone 2?
I consider it on a case to case basis, but in general, I’d consider a z2 run a run where the vast bulk of the running is at/near z2, without too many forays into z4-5 for more than very short periods. I’ve found most of my 90+minute runs automatically fall into this range unless I’m racing or willfully going for a ‘PR’, which is also why I can’t imaging all those people who are saying z2 is too easy, are actually holding z3+ for 90 minutes for overall average HR.
75-85% of maximum heart rate would be roughly 65-75% of VO2max. Assuming average running economy and that most people find it rather awkward to jog at <4 moh (15 min/mi), then anybody w/ a VO2max of less than about 40 mL/min/kg is going to have a hard times staying in zone 2 while running.
I also agree that 180 bpm max seems a bit low, but could be for you.
I’m 45 and can race over 180 for an hour easily. Actually, at about age 40, I did a 15k (just under an hour) at an avg HR of 192, hitting 202.
Point is, don’t get too hung up on HR. I’m a bit of a hummingbird. Friends that are diesels (as you appear to be) and just as fast. If you are using a coach and that is the plan (the zone 2 running), make sure your HR zone is correct, and trust your coach. If not using a coach, sometimes zone 2 can be crazy slow (esp if a long run) but that is the idea. You will get “fitter” eventually, but remember to get faster, all that zone 2 stuff is just your base and other physiological pathways have to be trained as well.
Just curious - for those of you who find zone 2 HR running ‘too easy’
**- How are you calculating your zone 2 HR? ** - And are you running for more than 80 minutes at a time regularly for these ‘too easy’ runs? - And are you considering the HR as an avg over the whole run, or are you just counting short sections?
Just curious, as I myself have never ever had an issue with zone 2 being too easy - if anything it’s too hard, and I come from a pure running background!
Don Fink’s HIM book uses a Z2 HR definition of 75-85% HRmax,
I’ve been talking with a Maffetone style coach a bit and before I jump in, I need to rectify this whole Z2 business.
I’ve always had a high HR. My all out sprint finish in a neck and neck tie in a 2 mile race was 211. Usually I see 202-205 in 5k’s, but have never had to really push that final 400m. Being 30, either of those two numbers is obviously at odds with the ridiculous 220-age number. The coach uses a 180-age for top end of Z2, so I am already put off knowing that that will tend to be too low (based on my age/MHR). She insists that MHR is a lot more variable that MAF, but I still disagree because I cannot do anything quicker than a slow shuffle-jog at 150. Fink puts me at 158-180 for Z2. The high end seems quite a bit higher than I would guess based on how people describe while still being Z2. Yesterday, I just ran as fast as I could while still at ‘short/clipped sentence’ conversational level. Obviously the hills in the first half makes for a nasty line, but the second half is cleaner. From that, I’d guess my Z2 is not much higher than 165. So, while that is comfortably within Fink’s Z2, those 22BPM between 158-180 is a huge range of paces (9mm-7:15) and not really what I would expect to classify as a distinct zone.
The majority of my runs through the week are quicker than this (7:15min/mile) and between 45 and 75 minutes. My long runs are at this pace range (~8:15min/mile) and are >13 miles/>90 minutes. I’ve been running this way for a few years now.
So, long story short, the coach’s MAF Z2 of 180-age seems way too low and Fink’s 75-85% of max seems to contain a reasonable Z2, but is too wide. I doubt I’d be able to reconcile that difference with this coach. Is Z2 supposed to contain everything from barely breathing more than sitting to nearly marathon pace?
Just curious - for those of you who find zone 2 HR running ‘too easy’
**- How are you calculating your zone 2 HR? ** - And are you running for more than 80 minutes at a time regularly for these ‘too easy’ runs? - And are you considering the HR as an avg over the whole run, or are you just counting short sections?
Just curious, as I myself have never ever had an issue with zone 2 being too easy - if anything it’s too hard, and I come from a pure running background!
Don Fink’s HIM book uses a Z2 HR definition of 75-85% He max,
I’ve been talking with a Maffetone style coach a bit and before I jump in, I need to rectify this whole Z2 business.
I’ve always had a high HR. My all out sprint finish in a neck and neck tie in a 2 mile race was 211. Usually I see 202-205 in 5k’s, but have never had to really push that final 400m. Being 30, either of those two numbers is obviously at odds with the ridiculous 220-age number. The coach uses a 180-age for top end of Z2, so I am already put off knowing that that will tend to be too low (based on my age/MHR). She insists that MHR is a lot more variable that MAF, but I still disagree because I cannot do anything quicker than a slow shuffle-jog at 150. Fink puts me at 158-180 for Z2. The high end seems quite a bit higher than I would guess based on how people describe while still being Z2. Yesterday, I just ran as fast as I could while still at ‘short/clipped sentence’ conversational level. Obviously the hills in the first half makes for a nasty line, but the second half is cleaner. From that, I’d guess my Z2 is not much higher than 165. So, while that is comfortably within Fink’s Z2, those 22BPM between 158-180 is a huge range of paces (9mm-7:15) and not really what I would expect to classify as a distinct zone.
The majority of my runs through the week are quicker than this (7:15min/mile) and between 45 and 75 minutes. My long runs are at this pace range (~8:15min/mile) and are >13 miles/>90 minutes. I’ve been running this way for a few years now.
So, long story short, the coach’s MAF Z2 of 180-age seems way too low and Fink’s 75-85% of max seems to contain a reasonable Z2, but is too wide. I doubt I’d be able to reconcile that difference with this coach. Is Z2 supposed to contain everything from barely breathing more than sitting to nearly marathon pace?
Sorry but are you saying your coach has not tested your maximum heart rate?
Sorry but are you saying your coach has not tested your maximum heart rate?
She is not my coach. I will not hire her if I think her plan (Z2=180-age) will not work for me.
Besides, I don’t need a coach to test my max! That is the easy (if not painful) part. I need to define Z2!
75-85% of maximum heart rate would be roughly 65-75% of VO2max. Assuming average running economy and that most people find it rather awkward to jog at <4 moh (15 min/mi), then anybody w/ a VO2max of less than about 40 mL/min/kg is going to have a hard times staying in zone 2 while running.
Sorry but are you saying your coach has not tested your maximum heart rate?
She is not my coach. I will not hire her if I think her plan (Z2=180-age) will not work for me.
Besides, I don’t need a coach to test my max! That is the easy (if not painful) part. I need to define Z2!
I’m just astounded a coach would use 180 - age… 220 - age is just as stupid. Does she charge money or is she some sort of astrologist?