? for San Francisco residents -- not tri related

Triathlon Forum
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Hello all … a few questions for San Francisco residents, as my wife and i are contemplating a relocation. We currently live in Manhattan, Kansas and have never lived outside of the Midwest (although I’ve travelled extensively).

We know it’s expensive, but how expensive? I’ve re-searched on the Web about cost of living, but I’d like to hear from someone actually living in the City.

Can you subjectively rate the standard of living? (ie cultural opportunities, entertainment etc.)

How is the job market for educated intelligent liberal arts types (you know, smart people with no tangible skills like computer programming or auto mechanic)? My wife is a veterinarian so she’s quite employable … I currently work as a disaffected police officer.

Other random comments also appreciated!

A big genuine hearty midwestern thank ya’ll!

Best
Jason

2

Manhattan, KS (where I spent many a very fun day and night from 1979-1984…GO WILDCATS!) and San Francisco are worlds apart.

Let’s see,

SF–ultra, left-leaning liberal in pretty much all ways. As a moderate Republican, Caucasian, heterosexual, female, I am a huge minority here. If that sort of thing bothers you, this isn’t the place. Actually, at home (Emporia, KS), I’d probably be labeled a LIBERAL. Here, I definitely am not. Our new (heterosexual, young, married) mayor just “suspended” the law and is issuing same sex marriage licenses. Just another “only in SF” moment (though I do agree with him on that.) Lots of homeless abound as this seems to be a magnet for many.

Cost of living–average rent for a one-bedroom apt. in the City is about $1,600/month. That’s down from more than $2,000 in the dot-com boom. Though there are quite a few places with for rent signs. I make pretty good money, but I am at the poverty level for home-buying (according to a recent newspaper article). Pretty much everything is a lot more expensive here than Kansas–gas, insurance, some food, taxes. My mom, dad, brother have sticker shock every time they come out to visit.

Standard of living: culture = way better than KS or even KC; entertainment = ditto; recreation and leisure = ditto (we can ride year round). You can either surf or ski, sometimes on the same day. Lots of triathletes and training opportunities. Two pro football teams, two pro baseball teams, one pro (well, they say they are) basketball team, three local universities with all their culture and sporting events. A world class opera, symphony and ballet. Multiple art museums. Shopping. Thousands of restaurants from 4-star to great local spots. You have to get away from most parts of the City to encounter chain-store/restaurant mania.

Jobs: Not sure on specifics, but things are starting to pick up business-wise.

Lastly: I’ve been here since 1986. I’d never move back to Kansas and have only a very short list of places that I’d live aside from NorCal. Though I’d say come visit first before you make any big decisions.

clm

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How expensive? The median price of a house in the Bay Area is $560k.

That aside, here’s what I don’t like about living in the city:

I think SF is ugly. The layout of the city sucks. We don’t have alleys. Thus driveways take up streetside curb space and parking is very tight, and power lines are clustered thickly overhead on all but the wealthiest streets. There aren’t enough trees.

Housing quality is generally much worse than in the Midwest, especially in rentals. I lived and rented in Chicago for five years, where you can still rent an affordable one-bedroom in a nice turn-of-the-century brick building. Here, “affordable” one-bedrooms come in crappy stucco boxes.

Public transit is cheap – $45/month for a pass good for unlimited use within the city – but you get what you pay for. Muni needs a serious overhaul. The older buses leak when it rains. If you plan to drive to work downtown, you will likely pay several hundred bucks per month for parking.

From what I hear, getting a child into the SF public school of your choice is a nightmare.

The negatives are not so bad outside the city – the East Bay, for example, is slightly more affordable, and the farther you get from the city, the cheaper it gets. My husband and I will probably move there when we decide to buy a house because, like clm said, only those at the highest income levels can afford a median-priced home in SF.

What I love about SF and the Bay Area:

Being able to ride, run, swim and race outdoors year-round.

Being a few hours’ drive from the Sierras, Lake Tahoe, Yosemite, King’s Canyon/Sequoia, Mendocino, Santa Cruz, the Central Coast, etc.

Having a view of the ocean from our dinky apartment.

Being able to walk home from work, or anywhere else, when the mood strikes (the city is only about 7 miles across).

Living just over the bridge from the rural roads of Marin County, and riding those roads among hordes of cyclists on a nice day.

Living four blocks from Golden Gate Park and its many miles of running paths.

The Escape From Alcatraz and dozens of other top-notch races.

The Presidio, Ocean Beach, Sports Basement, a zillion potential training partners, cheap ethnic cuisine, good pubs, great bike and running shops.

The Bovine Bakery in Pt. Reyes Station. (Scones to die for, about a 35-mile ride each way from the GG Bridge.)

When I moved here from Chicago, I was a couch potato. Living here has contributed a lot to who I am today. I really miss Chicago, but I don’t miss the weather or the flatness of the Midwest.

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And I thought I was the only person that did not think highly of SF! I fully concur with Ariel, I find the city to be too crowded, dirty, and run down. Having lived in the Midwest (Ohio and Kentucky) for many years spoiled me for open spaces, and I could never live in a city like SF again. Thankfully for the Bay Area though, it has BART (http://www.bart.gov), which allows you to live outside the city itself, in a far nicer locale, and still be able to commute in a reasonable amount of time. You can find a decent house (not apartment) in the East Bay for about $350k, and a good apartment for less.

As far as entertainment is concerned… a world apart: SF has everything you could ever want. It may not be LA, but I doubt you’ll find something missing.

And of course, it has the weather: 300 sunny days per year almost forces you to get out and train. One caveat though: there are very few indoor pools here, so if you do your swimming early in the morning prepare to suffer a bit during the winter.

Jobs are tight right now, both in technical fields and for support positions (administration, etc.), and I highly doubt that things are going to change much in the foreseeable future.

A few random thoguhts:

Aesthetics: there is something to be said about the landscape in the Midwest being always engaging – lushly green, to fall colours, to white blanketing. Over here, hills that are not heavily forrested turn an ugly beige (“golden” in local parlance) during the long dry season, which I do not find very agreeable. Then again, this point is largely moot in the city itself.

If you have never experienced an earthquake, your first time is going to be a memorable one.

If you’re an outdoors type be prepared for the snakes. I had never seen one in the wild before I came to California; in my seven years here I have seen more than 20, and last year I just stopped counting. It may seem like a non-issue to most people, but I was in shock the first time I saw a big rattler.

Would I consider returning to the Midwest if I was given the chance? Probably not, but it’s not a night-and-day difference.

John

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300 sunny days per year

Ha! Guess you don’t live in the Sunset/Richmond. Still, I took the mild winters for granted… didn’t start any sort of endurance sports until after moving to Chicago. Would love to be able to train outside during the winter now…

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As Cathy suggested, come visit. The SF Bay Area is huge, diverse, and has a little something for everyone. I work downtown and live 15 miles away in Mill Valley at the base of Mt Tamalpias. Love it. When ultrarunners from outside of the area talk about a dream place to live and train, they talk about our backyard. Mt Tamalpias. There are epic road rides in the North bay(Marin), East Bay(Walnut Creek/Danville/Oakland hills), and South bay(Palo Alto/Tunitas Creek). Large tri clubs, great masters swim programs, dozens of solid bike racing teams, there’s something for everyone. But you need to come explore. Come swim with the masters program at USF, or hook up with someone from the other great teams like Walnut Creek or Burlingame. Bring the bikes and there are literally dozens of group rides every weekend. Bring the shoes for one of the standing Tues, Wed, Thur, Sat, or Sunday runs.

And when you aren’t playing, there is some of the best eating and entertainment around. Come play.

7

I’ve only visited the place so can’t really comment, but a friend of ours moved to SF within the last year and paid 300 K for a small one bedroom condo apartment and tells us by SF standards he got a great deal. We live in an area where 300K would you the largest mansion on the hill with water front, so we’re still in shock over his purchase. Other than housing costs, he tells us he loves SF.

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My wife and I grew up in the bay area and have been trying to get back there for three or four years now. It hasn’t happened for us and probably won’t for quite some time because of real estate prices and the job market. One of the posts above said that the median home price in SF is $560K. I kind of doubt it is that low. If it is, it is only because the house you get for $560K is not something that a white collar two income couple from the Midwest would touch with a ten foot pole. The job market was absolutely horrible (from the crash until maybe last year). It is apparently getting a little better now though it is still probably worse than just about anywhere else. I would be very hesitant to move there without a job already set up.

As for random thoughts: As others have said, the bay area is great, the city is great, but moving to SF proper from the midwest will be a serious culture shock. Not saying don’t do it but at least look into the east bay, Marin county, the peninsula, maybe San Jose etc. You have all the cultural opportunities and excitement 30-45 minutes away and you don’t have to deal with all the problems.

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Here is my source for that $560k figure. (Couldn’t link to it last night because I was on an old browser w/o the fancy advanced editing features.) Note that it is for the Bay Area in 2003, not just SF. That number would definitely be on the low end for a condo the city.

…An income of about $124,000 was needed to purchase a median-priced $560,240 home in the Bay Area in 2003. That’s $47,400 higher than the $76,600 median household income in the Oakland metropolitan area and $32,500 higher than the San Francisco metropolitan area’s median income of $91,500.

sfgate.com

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msn.com has a nice little “Compare Cities” section which shows SF as having a median income of $74,773 and a median house value of $404,500. As someone earlier said, not many people would want to live in what that would buy you.

http://houseandhome.msn.com/pickaplace/comparecities.aspx?FromState=CA&EarningFromCity=150000&FromCity=San+Jose