FMB Cyclocross tires?

Triathlon Forum
1

I decided to go tubular this season. Was going to go with challenge Grifo’s as they looked like a good all-arounder and a lot of people run them. After doing a little research, it sounds like the sidewalls are a real problem, even with lots of aqua seal. Came across these FMB tires, sound like they are top notch (a little pricey $115 each) and they have a factory sidewall sealant which should address some of the problems with the challenge tires. They are handmade in France by some guy and it sounds like a lot of pros are riding re-branded FMB tires.

http://www.worldclasscycles.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=WCC&Category_Code=T8

Anyone ride FMB? What tread do you like? I don’t have a problem with the price, at the end of the day I always think it is worth going all out on tires and for CX it seems like a no-brainer.

Any votes for the Challenge? What tread for all around? I will definitely end up racing in some mud, but I only am going to have one set of tires, so I would rather go for an all-arounder than a full on mud tire.

2

I can’t help with the the FMB question, but as someone who is still going to be on clinchers for this season, I’d love to know what you think about them after the season. It’s tempting to get tubulars and not worry as much about flat pinching at really low pressures. Is that your main driver for the switch?

3

I can’t help with the the FMB question, but as someone who is still going to be on clinchers for this season, I’d love to know what you think about them after the season. It’s tempting to get tubulars and not worry as much about flat pinching at really low pressures. Is that your main driver for the switch?

After a couple of seasons of racing cross, it has become clear that tires are by far the most important part of the bike. Being able to run at low pressures, with very supple tires seems like a huge factor, especially when there is any wet ground or mud. I am guessing you could be easily be looking at 45-60 seconds in a 30-45 minute race with going from okay tires (decent clinchers) to top of the line tubulars. Since this could be difference between winning a race and not even being on the podium it seems like a no brainer, especially when you consider that you could easily get a brand new set of top tubulars for around $200 and some decent wheels for around $400 (you don’t need deep carbon fiber, Mavic reflex look like they would run fine).

Pull the trigger.

4

Not sure about the comments regarding Challenge sidewalls, they are by far the most sturdy of the typical tubular brands – Challenge, Dugast and FMB in my experience. I have untreated Challenge Grifos from several years ago that are fine while I have not made it much past 1 season of use on an aqua sealed FMB or Dugast. Those last two are more supple than the Challenge by far. It’s a question of how well you can take care of them and what you value.

5

Not sure about the comments regarding Challenge sidewalls, they are by far the most sturdy of the typical tubular brands – Challenge, Dugast and FMB in my experience. I have untreated Challenge Grifos from several years ago that are fine while I have not made it much past 1 season of use on an aqua sealed FMB or Dugast. Those last two are more supple than the Challenge by far. It’s a question of how well you can take care of them and what you value.

Which specific FMBs did you run?
So your recommendation would be go with the Challenge Grifos? Did you race in wet conditions a lot?

Basically price for these tires is not an issue. I want the best combination of traction and flat resistance, for a tire that is going to run in wet conditions probably half the time. It sounds like the Dugast is not the right choice, trying to decide FMB or Challenge. If I went with the Challenge and don’t like them at least I would save a little money;)

6

I have the SSC I believe, the all around cx tubular from FMB. It’s been a pretty dry cx wise the last few years in MN so I can’t recall using the FMB in a real muddy course, typically I will run a set of mud tubulars for those days. That said, when in doubt, I used the FMBs and thought they were good. The biggest issue with these is their life span, they will feel nicer than the challenges to most folks, they just take a good bit more care to prep before using and then to manage going forward.

The FMBs are not notably different than Dugast in terms of cost and/or care requirements.

7

Can’t you run some Stan’s no flats in them ?

Thom

8

Your handling skills (or lack thereof) are costing you a lot more time than your tires.

You’re seriously going to spend $230 on tires, so you can come in 6th in your races now, rather than 9th?

9

Can’t you just run tubeless clinchers with stans like a mtb? Run a Raven tire or whatever you like . Then you can drop preasure a lot Going Tubeless for Cyclocross – Avoiding the Burp …
www.cxmagazine.com/going-tubeless- …
Jun 9, 2011 – Going tubeless for cyclocross

Thom

10

That’s not true at all. While yes, everyone can get a little better at handling. Tubular tires are a MAJOR upgrade if you ride in any kind of mud. I live in Oregon, and you are at a huge disadvantage here not to ride tubulars. You just can’t run low enough pressure in clinchers to get the grip that you need in the mud. It’s comical to watch people just sliding off off cambers while you just cruise on by them.
You don’t have to spend $230. I have run the Tufo Cubus tires for two season now (and going strong). Got them on sale for $40/each, if I recall. I wanted a bombproof tubulars (screw “suppleness”, I want something that I don’t have to mess with every few races). Too many guys in cross focus on getting light equipment. You want stuff that is durable, that won’t break in the middle of the race. I’d gladly add a pound or two to my bike if it meant I wasn’t breaking componentry once or twice a season.

TriYoda, I would caution to no throw around the phrase “Price is of no concern”, as you’ll get a bunch of comments on the costs.

11

I’ve not read anything, nor experienced, like what you did with Challenge tires. They hold up pretty well, really. The problem is they use a more durable and therefore less supple casing to accomplish that. From what I’ve read and been told the FMB tires hold up a lot better than the Dugasts do. But they are pricier.

If you’re only going to get one set of tires get mud tires. (unless you live in the Southwest I suppose) You can race mud tires in anything but dry tires in the mud usually doesn’t go well. That said, I’ve seen people race the classic Griffo tread in all sorts of conditions. At 22psi I’m not sure how much the tread matters.

As to tubeless, it’s a no go for 'cross. I am sure people are going to come out of the walls and tell me it works. It doesn’t, for 'cross. People end up burping the tires. There seems to be a lot more lateral stress on 'cross tires than MTB tires. Yes I run tubeless MTB tires, I love them. I bought tubulars for 'cross though.

12

I have used Challenge Grifos and FMBs’s extensively. The Challenge tires are nice and perform well, but the FMBs are a cut above.

The FMBs are lighter, more supple, they have a sublime feel, and the quality is top notch. I have a set of FMBs with Grifo tread as well as two sets with the the Gripo XL (old Racing Ralph tread). I tend to use the Grifos on fast, dry courses and always go to the Gripo XLs when it gets wet, slick and muddy.

13

I would guess a majority of Euro pros have FMB or Dugast under them. They don’t pay for their tires and have probably a dozen sets of wheels ready to go at any time. If you live or race in Oregon I would absolutely go with a set of Dugast Rhinos and either FMB or Dugasts on my other sets. Oregon (Portlandish) is known for mud and more mud. Caveat, you will cry when you flat a $130 tire (trust me).

If you ride rocky dry courses or with thorns Tufo tires are the most bomb proof tubies alive. They don’t ride as sweet as the FMB or Dugast, but they are way better than almost any clincher. I was lucky enough to get a great deal on some bigger 34mm FMBs with Racing Ralphs that are like riding big pillows around the course. My fav tire ever.

Challenge makes pretty decent all around tires, but the Fango which was supposed to be a mudder ain’t. I have not tried their new Limus tire yet. Griffo is a great all around tire(clincher and tubular) Clement PDX is not a perfect mudder, but a pretty good all arounder. Vittoria, Challenge and Clements are all pretty decent across the board, but no where near as sweet as the FMB or Dugast period.

I also use some sort of flat liquid inside my cross tires.

Being a basic cheap bastard, I run Mavic Reflex box rims and have several sets of wheels with either Ultegra or on sale Dura Ace hubs. For the couple grand a fancy set of carbon wheels costs, you can get several sets of my wheels. You do not lose races because your wheels are not carbon in cross. Having extra wheels to choose from with a set of all rounders, a file tread for dry fast, and some mudders sure is sweet. I practice on clinchers cause we have lots of thorns on my local courses. Never bad to have a clincher set on a road trip either. If you flat your tubies in warmup Saturday or need to change styles of tires, your tubular setup won’t even be ready by Sunday.

Learn to glue those suckers on real good. Two schools of thought are the Belgian method with rim tape or no tape just multi layers of glue. When low pressures, water and mud mix you better have those puppies glued on very well. If you are willing to spend the big bucks, the high end tubulars ride so so nice. But Tufo, Challenge, Vittoria or Clement tires on sale can be a crossmans best friend and ride so nice at lower pressures.

If you want to witness the difference between tubular and clincher tires, stake out a spot on an off camber. muddy hill with a corner and watch the lines. I know from experience that when I am dialed in you can really gap someone of equal skill. Or when you are not dialed in you can watch the guy in front of you hold a line that sends you the long way sliding down the hill with a lot of catching up to do. I do not know how you are able to laugh so hard when you hurt so much, but if you ever get a chance ride the Raceway course in PDX in the rain and try to bust a move on the off camber there. You have not ridden cross till you ride a mud race in PDX.

There are some people that do get away with tubeless tires in cross. I know a couple guys that swear by them, I do not and will probably never explore that venue. And will all the bikes, .wheels and single speed cross bikes in my life, I am not going disc brakes anytime soon. But if you are new to cross, discs are here to stay.

14

First off, the Euro pros are paying for their Dugasts and FMBs - neither Richard nor Francois has the money to give away the number of tires that the pros require given that all of those are made by hand. The fact that a lot of pros are buying the tires is what makes them reasonably priced for regular consumers also. Yes, those tires are a cut above. Francois and Richard both used to work for Henri Dugast and Richard took over after Henri was done (Francois left and started FMB with the same techniques that he learned at Dugast). Both have latex tubes, supple casings, and soft tread rubber to make a tire that really performs seamlessly.

My opinion is that Dugast tread patterns for mud and general tires are better than FMB, though FMB can make you tires with the Challenge treads and either will make you tires with any tread you want if you send them the tires to take the tread from. Challenge makes pretty nice tires, but the consistency and QC are not great. Clement cross tubs are made by Tufo (who also makes good cross tires in their own right) and I would say that Donn Kellog is one heck of a good guy so buying his tires is something that I would recommend for personal reasons as well as the fact that they are very good tires.

I work with Vittoria as a technical consultant, so I won’t say anything about them.

At the end of the day, you can rest comfortably knowing that you are making the right choice by going to tubulars for cyclocross. In my opinion and the opinion of many I know, tubular is THE ONLY way to ride cross. Tubeless is good for training, but racing, they leave you a couple steps behind - they don’t stay as round, and you just can’t run them as low (I know a lot of guys that run Dugasts as low as 22 or 24 psi - try that with tubeless and you’ll be running to the pits).

15

Your handling skills (or lack thereof) are costing you a lot more time than your tires.

You’re seriously going to spend $230 on tires, so you can come in 6th in your races now, rather than 9th?

Last race I came in second. You were pretty far behind.
I have been racing a single speed in geared bike races and holding my own. I think with gears and a nice wheelset I might do okay. Lack of handling has a lot to do with running clinchers at too high a pressure.

With the money I save by racing tris on an 11 year old aluminum Cervelo, I can afford to drop $230 on tires;)

16

That’s not true at all. While yes, everyone can get a little better at handling. Tubular tires are a MAJOR upgrade if you ride in any kind of mud. I live in Oregon, and you are at a huge disadvantage here not to ride tubulars. You just can’t run low enough pressure in clinchers to get the grip that you need in the mud. It’s comical to watch people just sliding off off cambers while you just cruise on by them.
You don’t have to spend $230. I have run the Tufo Cubus tires for two season now (and going strong). Got them on sale for $40/each, if I recall. I wanted a bombproof tubulars (screw “suppleness”, I want something that I don’t have to mess with every few races). Too many guys in cross focus on getting light equipment. You want stuff that is durable, that won’t break in the middle of the race. I’d gladly add a pound or two to my bike if it meant I wasn’t breaking componentry once or twice a season.

TriYoda, I would caution to no throw around the phrase “Price is of no concern”, as you’ll get a bunch of comments on the costs.

I am moving to Oregon, which is also another reason it seems like this is a logical upgrade at this time;)

17

If you are moving to Oregon get Dugast Rhinos. It’s the most important piece of CX equipment anyone there owns…

And, as a plus, Rhinos are a very good general tire. The very consistent center tread keeps the rolling resistance low for such an aggressively lugged tire.

18

T.Y. -
The Challenge tires are more durable than the FMB, which are more durable than the Dugast. Both the Dugast & the FMB have cotton casings, the Challenge are Cotton/Poly, which means they are much more rot resistant, as well as more resistant to wear, generally. Most people don’t treat Challenge sidewalls, and you really don’t need to. The FMB come with factory treated sidewalls, which mean you don’t have to Aquaseal them, as you do the Dugast (not optional, they won’t last a full season if you race in the rain & don’t treat Dugast tires.)

The Challenge tires have stiffer sidewalls than the FMB & the Dugast. Contrary to the opinions often thrown around, this is not an entirely negative thing. Both Dugast & FMB offer stiffer sidewall versions of their tires & charge extra for them. It’s a question of riding style and terrain - I know more than one pro who prefers the Challenge Grifo to the Dugast Typhoon due entirely to the stiffer casing of the Challenge tires (the tread patterns are virtually identical.)

If you can only have one set of tires and you’re going to be in Oregon, frankly I wouldn’t get any of these, I would get a set of the Clements. The tread pattern is a very good all-around pattern (leaning towards a mud tire…) the casing is a good compromise between robust & compliant, they will never rot on you - even if you don’t seal them - and they work very well with sealant. This is important if you only have one set of wheels/tires. If you race enough, you will flat, and you will need to have a solution in place. It’s nice to know that you can flat in warmups, pump sealant into the tire and fix most problems. This simply isn’t the case with any of the traditionally constructed tires.

For what it’s worth…

(Edit to add: I currently own (or have owned) and have raced all of the tires mentioned, including the stiffer sidewall versions of both the Dugast and FMB tires. Again, for what it’s worth…)

19

With a Dugast, FMB or any other tire with a latex tube you can use Stans or Caffe Latex, or Vittoria Pit Stop, or any number of other sealants to fix a minor flat the same as you can with a Tufo/Clement (though T/C use a different sealant).

I do agree with Fredly that a supple casing is not the be all/end all with CX tires. This has been one of my pushes with Vittoria over the last year - because you are running very low pressures you need more structure out of the casing than you need in a road tire at 120 psi. The key is to get a tire that has the right casing stiffness for the stiffness of the tread rubber. If the tread rubber is stiffer then you need a lot more structure out of your casing in order to run the right amount of pressure so that you tire fits perfectly to the terrain without folding over.

As a side note for people new to CX tubulars - the rule of thumb that I was told is that while you are pre-riding the course (hot lap, not just an easy spin) you want your pressure low enough that you just barely bottom out the tire once a lap, in a race that will probably go up 2-3 times if you are riding harder and still picking your lines well.

20

"With a Dugast, FMB or any other tire with a latex tube you can use Stans or Caffe Latex, or Vittoria Pit Stop, or any number of other sealants to fix a minor flat the same as you can with a Tufo/Clement (though T/C use a different sealant). "

Sorry, but I simply can’t agree with this.
The efficacy of sealant in a Tufo/Clement casing is markedly better than in a latex inner tube, and to such a degree that it isn’t really even a close comparison, at least in my experience.
I wish this weren’t the case, as I have spent well over $1000 on Dugast tires over the years. Currently I have several Dugasts that need new inner tubes in my closet right now - none of which were able to be fixed with sealant - and one Rhino that I was able to fix with sealant (but don’t trust enough to race with.) At the same time I have a set of Tufo-carcass tires with at least 1/2 dozen holes in them that are still going strong…

It’s also worth mentioning that Dugast specifically advise against using Stans in their tires (or at least have, historically) and recommend the use of Caffe Latex only, and only for small puncture repairs, with the warning that latex sealant remnant in tires has a tendency to glue the sides of the tube together, destroying the tube. That’s not exactly “same as.” :slight_smile: