Shouldn’t there be a flexibility tesy before having a bike fit? Two people with the same body measurments, even the same built don’t have the same flexibility, ergo different comfort position on his bike. Is there a flexibiltiy test…bend this way, bend that way… to determine the persons limits before bike fitting? If there are, what are the stretches for a bike fitter to see the customers range before the session. Any link to refer?
I had one done. The flexibility test was not extreme by any means. The data from it was used in some part of the fit as the ranges were referenced with some chart. Wish I could remember what part of the fit it was used for. Serrata was one of certifications though Im not sure the flex test was from that training.
I found this site that includes flex in to its fit formula…
http://www.wrenchscience.com/WS1/Secure/Fitting/Height.asp
Jason
“Shouldn’t there be a flexibility tesy before having a bike fit? Two people with the same body measurments, even the same built don’t have the same flexibility”
Absolutely. As a chiropractor and cycling nutter I’ve thought out a series of basic standardized testing procedures that would include general flexibility tests, more specific tests for lumbar/cervical spine, muscle testing, as well as looking for leg length differences, foot pronation/supination, etc that could be used by pro bike fitters. They should be looking at these things as well as have a checkist and a stardardized screening procedure. There’s no point for example in setting up somebody with chronic neck problems in an aggressive steep position. I think something like this could be taught as part of any major bike fitting course.
I’ve talked to Paul Levine on the phone about this, but my problem is that I live way the heck out in the rural boonies. If I lived in a more urban area where there were some good bike fitters I’d love to work hand in hand with them.
the “Medical guide for Cyclists” says at the beginning of the fit section if you can’t easily bend over and touch your toes then none of these formulas will work.
Hmm. My bike fits pretty good and I can’t touch my toes on a bet.
What does one have to do to pass such a test? Is there a prep course?
No.
Because flexibility is not (as) relevant to bike fit.
However, a related concept to flexibility, mobility, is relevant to bike *positioning *and rider posture.
In the context that I am using these terms, flexibility refers to the total range of motion a person is capable of for a given movement. I use the term **mobility **to refer to the functional and repeatable range of motion for a person for a given movement, such as rotating a crank arm through 360 degrees.
These different terms acknowledge the significant differences that can exist between these two distinctly different concepts. In simple terms*, flexibility* infers static range of motion (one time movement at no particular velocity, just whatever is comfortable) and* mobility* I would use to describe the frequently repeatable range of motion at velocity.
A good examply of this is Bjorn Andersson. Andersson has both exception *flexibilty *and *mobility. *See this article I wrote about him: http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/features/superswede.shtml
Andersson has the capability to repeatedly perform a very wide range of motion at full race pedalling frequency. His *mobility *exceeds most of our *flexibility. *
I would suggest a reasonable check for *mobility *is appropriate when positioning a rider. *Flexibility *however, is a greatly diminished concern in comparison.
You shouldn’t be allowed to ride. Poser.
Yes. And a good fitter will do just that. Mostly, hamstring range of motion is the issue.
Plus the fitter will an intake of background info, (experience, injuries, etc).
Don’t waste your time & money on a bad fit. Get references.
the problem with most fittings that test for flexibility is that you are testing a range of motion for a person who just sttod up from sitting in a car and not someone warmed up…as we all know, there is a big difference and the static test is not a good indicator of flexibility.
You shouldn’t be allowed to ride. Poser.
When are we going to see you at some club races, bro? Check the bike splits from the last two. 
True dat.
But, so, is it better to fit somebody who isn’t warmed up & be conservative with the fit, or to fit them when they are warm & loose and fit them more aggressively set up?
Cuz, how many get on the bike already warmed up, except for on race day? Hm. I wonder what a fitter would do.
Nice, you were haulin! My only issue with the club races is that they require that you run and/or swim. I haven’t been doing much of that. I’ve kinda fallen off the fitness wagon big time. I’ve been riding a pretty good amount, but I guess it’s the wrong type of riding b/c my speed and endurance aren’t very good at all. Arrggghhh!!
It’s always cool to come to a du or tri and just do the bike. I’ve done that before. It’s a nice high intensity workout.
Hope to see you soon.
Something new to me, “mobility and flexibility”. I do some bike fitting here (not certified) for friends who want my opinion. I set their bike up on my trainer and let them warm up from 15-20 minutes. This gets them to a light sweat and a chance for me to see their position before any changes are made (if needed). After which I try my best to adjust what needs to be adjusted from pointers I learned from years of cycling, personal ride experiences and learnings picked up her at ST.
Will include a powertap into the equation when I save up to get direct results from position changes. It has always been my priority to get the riders feedback if the adjustment made is comfortable or not. In the back of my mind, I have seen many different ranges from similar body types I have helped, which lead me to think I should first test each ones flexibility or as Tom says…mobility before fitting. I was hoping there is a diagram and set of stretches that can tell me a persons capability.
More than what the ideal position should be and what length, rise etc etc of equipment shuold be used…rider comfort is the end goal.
I’ve been fitted 2x by the guru, Paul Levine, and he always checks the rider’s range of motion as a part of the fitting process. Specifically for your hips/hamstrings, and lower back, as these are typically limiters for many folks. (not me, I’m pretty limber for a middle-aged white guy)
The idea is this - he wants to make sure that whatever position you end up on the bike, doesn’t have you bumping up against your own natural physical limitations. If you did that, you would effectively be fighting against yourself w/ every pedal stroke, instead of being comfortably within your personal range of motion.
I think “checking your position” w/ a PowerTap or comparable device is kinda bogus. Since, if you are adopting a position that is more than slightly different than whatever it was you were using before, there is naturally going to be an adjustment period and/or learning curve associated w/ your new position. So, you might not have your best power #'s right from the get-go.
Like some others here, I’ve been fitted by The Man, Paul Levine a couple times.
From my experiences, (my studies, and being fitted by Paul), I don’t agree that “Mobility” is what you are looking to test. “Mobility”, as far as I know, is a term used to describe the “motion around a joint”. And that’s not what you’re looking for when testing range of motion of the hamstrings, or the muscles of the back -which is what you do for a bike fit.
Flexibility, or, more specifically, Range Of Motion, is testing the “resting length” of a muscle. This is a cold muscle, not a warmed up one. That’s what Paul looks for before he puts you on the bike. He tests the hamstrings, (and as somebody else mentioned, and I’d forgotten to mention before), the muscles of the back.
To test hamstrings, have client lay flat on a massage type table. Then with knee straight, you raise each leg, (one at a time, from the heel or at the ankle), until you hit the “end point” of the muscle’s range. That would be, when the hip starts to raise up off the table, or, when the leg not being tested, (that’s still laying on the table), begins to bend at the knee.
To test the back muscles just have client stand with feet shoulder distance apart, and bend over with knees straight until their “end point” is reached. After which they won’t be able to bend further unless they bend their knees.
Probably most everybody with have a greater range of motion once they are warm, but then you won’t be fitting them according to the true “resting length” of the muscles.
I wouldn’t think that it’d ever be possible to guess how “flexible” a person will be just by ‘body type’. Unless they’re a dancer.
Things that Paul was focused on were;
-Making sure my knees were tracking correctly, and not deviating medially or laterally, (I was having knee pain before he fit me)
-Making sure I wasn’t either; too stretched out when aero, (this throws off center of gravity and makes you unstable) or; not forward enough when aero, which can cause cramping and disomfort in the neck & shoulders
-Making sure you’re in enough of an agressive or relaxed postion, (forward & aft of saddle), for how you want to race, (relaxed for long rides, or aggressive for tri)
-Correct saddle height
-Correct cleat placement
I’m sure there’s more that I’m not remembering right now.
Powertap makes sense. I haven’t gone to Paul in a while, but I think he used that now in his fit sessions.
Hope anything I said helps somehow.
I went to the Bicycle Ranch in Phoenix last year at this time after I read some good reviews on Active.com. I had just raced a duathlon the day before and had a terrible ride/run to end the day so I was especially keen to take the bike fitter’s advice.
He began by testing for flexibility, but only to see if there were only any large limiters that would prevent a normal set-up. Even more importantly, he noticed a fairly significant leg length discrepancy that I was able to correct with cleat spacers. I had friends comment over the years about how one leg heel dropped down to level in the stroke but the other stayed pointed and the spacers fixed it.
He set me up and showed me on video where the issues were–I was too low in front, too scrunched up with a huge curve in my back. He traded out a 90mm 7 degree stem that I had flipped down with a 120mm 17 degree stem flipped up. My Thompson setback was flipped from forward to back, moving the seat back two to three inches. It was a fairly radical change, but I decided since I had paid $150 for his opinion I would be stupid not to try it out for a while. I rode a lot over the next couple of months and was very happy with my position, though eventually that spring I went to a straight post to move forward a bit. The Bicycle Ranch fit was more of a traditional road time trial fit it seemed, and I didn’t/don’t like having my arms extended much beyond 90 degrees.
I learned a couple of good lessons from the fit:
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Every fitter brings pre-conceived notions to the table and you ought to know what way they lean when you pick one.
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If you are going to pay the money, you owe it to yourself to give the new fit some time.
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Don’t feel obligated to stick with a fit that doesn’t seem to be working just because you paid a lot of money for it. No one person knows all there is to know about fitting a person to a bicycle.
Even though I changed some of the dimensions from the fit, I don’t consider it a waste of money. I went with a really bad position. I left with a better position that was greatly improved but still needed refinement. I ended up somewhere in between where I was before the fit and the position with which I left the session. It was remarkably close to what my bike builder, Ves Mandaric, had recommended in the beginning.
Chad
sure, but what about the YOGI? Does that mean we should place his aerobars at hub level? Or what about the human preztle guy? I can jsut see it, he walks into a shop that prides itself on there “complete” fit service and then they ask him to “stretch as far as you can” and the son of gun stretches all the way around until his face is in is arse…uh…what kind of position should we put him into? Then they lay him on the floor and then they ask if they can check the flexibility of hamstrings VOILA! his toes and his legs AND his knees are all on the gound parrallel to his body! …uh…what kind of position should we put him into? All kidding aside, I think stretching has a palce but I think there are some limits.
" Yes. And a good fitter will do just that."
i disagree. a flexibility, or range of motion, test prior to the fit procedure will in my experience not tell you anything you won’t find out once atop the bike. but it may lead you down a dangerous road toward a conclusion you ought not, as a fitter, draw.
as to the latter, what if your range of motion exceeds that point of biomechanical optimization? if you then set up the bike so that one’s hip angle (in other words, the armrest drop relative to the saddle at a determined seat angle) is determined by the flexibility test, what if one’s best leverage occurs with a more obtuse hip angle than one’s flexibility allows?
but what if it’s the opposite? what if one’s best leverage might occur with a hip angle more acute than one’s range of motion? in actual fact the subject, if allowed to find his or her OWN best position, will not in self-selecting this position proceed beyond the point of his or her mobility. in other words, one will not choose a hip angle more acute than that which one’s maximum range of motion allows.
finally, i find that maybe one in fifty people have a range of motion limitation that means one cannot find that point of maximum leverage – that “biomechanical sweet spot” – because of a range of motion issue.
therefore, while i have no problem with a flexibility test being performed, in actual practice it is in my experience superfluous, and not impactful, to the end result of one’s fit. and worse yet, if you fit someone based on this parameter you’re majoring in the minors. you’re picking a position based on an issue that is almost always non-impactful to one’s ability to effectively ride, and you’re ignoring one’s point of maximum leverage, which is hugely impactful.
i recognize that this is going to generate a variety of posts in opposition to my view, but i have fit a lot of people in the tri-specific position in the 16 years since i first advocated it, and range of motion tests have been around at least that long. i can only state my view based on my own experience, which is, i have no problem with other fitters’ employing such tests, but i don’t find them necessary.
again, i don’t have any problem with those who employ these tests, as long as their end result ends up being the correct bike fit. what i disagree with in your statement is that "a good fitter WILL . simply because you’ve been fitted by paul levine, and he performs that test, the syllogism you draw is just not based in truth for the reasons i state above.