Well, Dan layed it on us us last night. He has developed a way of fitting people on tri bikes that is, with no embelishment, revolutionary. I don’t use that term lightly either. It is more accurate and at least 50% faster (and therefore less expensive for shops, easier to do and more accessible to beginners) than the previous echniques such as NECA Fit Kit, which was never intended for triathletes anyway. They dont even spell “triathlon” correctly in the NECA software. Dan’s FIST method involves establishing the points in space where a person’s contact needs to be, then buildng the bike underneath. His technique is quick, easy and accurate. What is also interesting is that most of the other dealers here (Mission Bay, Enduro Sport, Edge Cyclesports, us here at Bikesport) have developed a similar type of system- but not as refined and streamlined. This is a significant contibution. We talked late into the night about fit and position, with lively discussions between Dan E., Fiona and Dan from Enduro Sport in Toronto, Me, Bill from Mission Bay and Gerard from Cervelo. Gerard’s input as a trained (and genetically programed…) engineer is very interesting. Today we spend the day fitting each other using the FIST techniques. For me, this has been a very valuable trip, even if I did wreck a car getting here.
Just dying to hear what this is about. Let’s hope that the info isn’t kept as a secret between just a few of those who take the course.
Tom, considering Dan’s bias towards steep 78/79 seat angles, will his methods also be applicable to less steep 75/76 angles or even road bike geometry?
My new bike is due into Msr. Demerly’s shop very shortly…thusly I suspect I may get the privilege of being one of the guinea pigs, I mean, honored first to be fit using the new knowledge. Needless to say, I am looking forward to it. 
Tom, maybe you can get your car repaired by doing what my LBS does and tack on an add’l $75 to the price of a new bike for a “professional” fit.
Since when is the notion of designing the bike around the rider’s position “revolutionary”? And how much time has Empfield spent in/around a wind tunnel, anyway?
I will say this, Tom: I’m sure your constant posting on the topic will help draw customers into your store when you hang that “FIST Certified” sign out front.
It sounds very intersting, Tom, but not unlike the “new fit paradigm” that was posted on the CYFAC site. Granted, that’s just an initial take, and CYFAC’s assumptions were based on road bike fit. Incidentally, I queried them about tri bike fitting/design some time ago but was not entirely convinced that they would be willing to take certain intangible aspects into account (flexibility, race length/type, pedal technique). Perhaps that is where Dan’s systematic approach will show the most promise. Let’s face it, not everyone is a masher, a spinner or needs an extremely aggressive position. The most aerodynamic set up will not benefit you if you cannot comfortably maintain it over the course of the race.
In any case, I look forward to hearing more about the system. Also, I wonder how much flexibility FIST will allow for the financial restraints and intentions of new buyers.
Scott
WOW! Strong statements from Ms/Mrs/Mr Anonymous!
Got a better way?
John
Hey Anonymous, Thanks for calling me out. You are 100% correct- the concept of designing the bike around the rider’s position is absolutely nothing new. The way Dan does it (called FIST) is new. Since it is radically different than previous techniques/processes I say itis a revolution.
Will we sell more bikes and attract more customers becasue of FIST certification? Man, I hope so. Is there a difference in a FIST certified fit by a guy who has 2000 triathlon fits and a guy who has done 100? Absolutely. FIST is very similar to what we were doing already and acheives the same result but is faster and more accurate. It was invented by the guy who (affectively) invented the triathlon bike as we know it. It works. You know how I know it works? Because it has been working for years for lots of triathletes- wthout a name and in a less standardized, streamlined, refined or elegant fashion.
FIST exemplifies the notion that “Perfection is not when there is nothing more to add, but there is nothing left to take away”. Don’t get me wrong- I’m not saying it is 100% perfect. But its the best thing I’ve seen so far for fitting triathletes to their bicycles (new or existing). I’ve been to NECA, Olympic Training Center, etc. We own a Fit Kit, we own a Serotta size cycle. Weve been down this road. I’d be the first one to say if this was baloney- but it isn’t. It is a nice system.
On a seperate topic, why don’t you consider changing your profile a little bit. Calling yourself “anonymous” kind of leaves some people with the impression that you are afraid to reveal your identity. That’s why I use my real name. If people disagree with what I say, they can take a big 'ol steaming turd on my porch to signify their displeasure/disagreement. Don’t be afraid to disagree. That’s what this is about.
Just reread Dan’s stack and reach article. Now (I think) that I’m getting the concept. Hope he get’s back to writing those articles once he’s done with you guys.
We are doing stack and reach on none other than Gerard Vroomen of Cervelo at this very instant. Very interesting.
Can anyone fill me in on the “slam” (?) position? is it a middle ground between road and tri positioning?
Thanks, e
Ummmm, bad words around here. For info on slam check out John Cobb’s website at bicyclesports.com. We’re not doing that here.
this is just my own conjecture here, but i think that this fist fitting deal will allow a good deal of variability in order to control cost. it sounds like (from dan’s article) that they are taking the measurements for the contact points, then add the components as desired, which should leave you with the frame measurements to achieve this fit. i would bet this could be adjusted slightly with steerer length and seatpost height, but you should be able to look through catalogs and geometry charts to find the options that a) fit, and b) are in the price range.
tom, dan, gerard, feel free to add or clarify here. it seems you have a quite a following interested in what exactly the deal is out there. later,
Yes, you are correct Scott. However, the missing link is industry wide adherence to the FIST bike measuring standard (publsihing “stack” and “reach”). These dimensions are already depicted for the P2K on Cervelo’s website in the geometry chart. Gerard has chosen to label them “vertical dimension” and “horizontal dimension” and they are in the last two columns. Every manufacturer needs to publish these specifications as a standard for comparison that is truly comparable across brands. Now, what are the chances the industry will adopt this? My opinion is butt-ass zero. So, Dan is going to publish these dimensions on his site from industry sources that provide the information to him. It’s a big job and may take a while. Once it is established it is a substantial resource.
You’ll find it in the technical articles. Also an article about it on “Dave’s Page”
…not sure that I would say they are bad words… just maybe in the wrong audience. On John’s site (and in his recent catalog) he is pretty specific about who he thinks can gain from the big slam. It is not for skinny triathletes that just bought a bike with a forward seat post.