Old habits die hard. I would like to kill this one in 2009:
My hand entry is slanted inward (palm faces out). Big time.
This is bad for my rotator cuff and doesn’t help the first part of my pull, as my arm has to adjust quite a bit after entry to grab water.
All this according to the local swim coach (and other swim coaches who have helped me over the last couple years).
He just told me to use a pull buoy and “really work on it.” OK.
This sounds kind of like what I’m trying to fix in my own stroke right now.
I don’t really think any of the drills you mentioned will really help with your hand entry position, though. Catch-up, fists, etc, usually work more on your body and arm positions than your hands.
What I’m doing is swimming sets and trying to focus on keeping my hand entry straight, without changing my body or arm position. Just pay really close attention to what your hands are doing, rather than mindlessly swimming.
I like your idea of trying to enter with the pinkie first. Sometimes over exaggeration of a movement helps make the proper form easier. Just swim your sets and force yourself to keep your hand straight as it enters the water. Eventually, it should become second nature, and you won’t have to focus on it as much.
Try to visualize sliding your hand into a mailbox slot when it enters the water. That might help you correct your stroke.
Using a pull buoy might work, if only that the pull buoy will allow you to glide and really slow down your stroke so you can focus on your technique. Once you get the technique corrected, you can work on speeding up your stroke rate (with perfect form of course).
If you swing your arm around in a rough imitation of a swim stroke I think you’ll find that your palm naturally faces outwards a little bit (about 45 degrees or so). Mine certainly does. IMO the importance of the angle of your hand into the water is overstated (keeping your wrist up is important, side to side angle of the palm is not). Far more critical is correct extension once you’re hand is in the water which gets your hand into the correct position for the catch (and palm angle during the catch).
I think you’ll find that if you extend properly your hand will naturally flatten out and get into the right position for the catch. If you enter with your hand on a 45 degree angle and extend forward I think you’ll see what I mean. If it’s not working, you are probably not rotating your shoulders enough.
Correct should rotation and extension in front should fix the problem. A drill to practice this would be reverse catch up. Much easier to demonstrate than to describe BUT… Arms by your sides, stroke with just your left arm, both arms by your sides stroke with just your right arm. When you start your left arm stroke your left shoulder will come up, as your left hands enters the water and you extend out in front your left should will go down. As you finish the catch (hand to your side) your left shoulder will rise again, as your shoulder drops you begin your right arm stroke (or your right arm starting its stroke drops your left shoudler down which ever way you want to think about it).
I like fist drill for catch - you can feel your hands grabbing water after that one. As a variation, do one hand open one hand fist.
You can think about “pinky first” and maybe it’ll be enough to compensate, maybe not.
Yes fingertip drag should put your hand with your middle finger perpendicular to the water so your hand is then at a better angle
Paddles might help but be wary of your shoulders.
For your hand to enter palm facing out you’re horribly internally rotating your glenohumeral joint, and this might mean your recovery is incorrect to put your shoulder in that position first place, something to think about.
Last one: catch up drill, holding a kickboard. So you are swimming with the kickboard (SWIMMING not kicking) and holding the kickboard at its bottom edge with both hands. Take one hand off it to stroke, that hand has to return to the kickbaord before you release with the other hand to stroke. Because your hands are flat holding it and already in the water that should help, you’ll have a hard time getting it back to palm-out.
The other drill, which is seriously one of the best things you can do in the water (“last one,” I lied) is single arm swimming. Extend the left arm, stroke only with the right. Best part of this one is feeling your hips open up but I digress. Maybe you can combine this with fist drill… anyway see if you can’t focus on NOT internally rotating that shoulder, and entering palm flatter, with that one.
I’m also a big fan of single arm but I prefer to do it with your resting arm by your side (although both ways are good). If your resting arm is by your side you can rotate your shoulders properly as you would when swimming with both arms. This means that you can also extend properly in front. If you keep your idle arm in front shoulder rotation is not really possible which means that you can’t extend properly.
When you say your palm is facing out when you enter… do you mean that you palm is facing the pool wall (so your hand is on a 90 degree angle to the bottom) or that your palm is partly facing the wall partly to facing the bottom (your hand is 45 degree angle to the bottom) or what?
I’m confused now. I had read often that the entry is made with the thumb entering first? I know everyone has an “individual stroke” but the entry is a fundamental. Maybe you can clear this up.
As far as drills, have decided that 20% of my swim yardage will be with cords. Sink or swim time. My personal swim challenge. IMO the best drill to fix a variety of ills.
I’ve seen very fast sprinters use “palms out” strokes, and use one myself.
Contemporary coaching methods now say that hands should go in fingertips first, palms down. I’ve heard a variety of explanations, most often – “because there is some amount of stroke mechanic improvement” or “because it requires you to rotate your hand back, wasting energy.” (if you’re reaching properly, you’ll probably do this anyways) I’ve never heard the rotator cuff explanation, but I’m pretty sure mine are shot from swimming Butterfly, not freestyle.
To me, this fits in the “finer points” category, and not in fundamentals. I’ve been coached again in recent years and have been instructed to lose the “palms out” and “lightbulb pull” by athletes that I can outswim, but annihilate me on the bike AND run.
For the OP, In my time coaching USS kids, the drills that reaped the greatest rewards, and the drills I do myself, are:
Catch Up
Fist
6 kicks/ side
3 kicks/ side
1 arm, hand at side.
You can try this too. It works not only on recovery, but body position and breath control, and switch timing.
Kick on your side, one hand out in “catch” position. Look to the sky, lay your head on your shoulder, in a breath position. As you turn you head in the water, check the leading hand to make sure that the palm is down, elbow is rotated out, and your getting full extension. From here (head looking down, leading hand in glide/catch position, kicking lightly and relaxed) Take the trailing hand, elbow up first and bring it forward (kind of like fingertip drill) and pat the water in front of you, then return the hand to pat the water back at your hip, the forward to entry and three strokes to the other side. Make sure you pat the water with a flat palm.
Did i describe the well enough? it s a hard drill to put in writing.
It s a great drill though. It works on a few things at once, and should get the switch timing better. OFTEN the thumb diving in first issue you are having is from the switch happening too soon. OR put another way, the other arm is starting the pull too soon, pulling the opposite shoulder down before and causing the inside of the hand lead the way.
Thanks, everyone. You have given me a lot of good ideas. To answer one question, the entry, especially on my right side & when I breath (either side) is nearly at 90 degrees. Been told by a few people that it is my biggest issue and compromises my early catch.
I did very few drills last season, but put in substantial yardage for a few months, especially in the lakes in the summer. I had some good swims at races, but I still have a ways to go. I suspect I can get a bit faster with just better technique. Since pools are so boring, and winter sucks for swimming, I’m thinking now’s the time to go drill crazy.
I’m confused now. I had read often that the entry is made with the thumb entering first? I know everyone has an “individual stroke” but the entry is a fundamental. Maybe you can clear this up.
When my hand enters the water in freestyle my fingertips go in first - I would say index and middle finger. If your thumb enters first you are internally rotating your shoulder too much, and I’d imagine you’d be sculling more than necessary during the pull phase. If your pinky enters first then you are externally rotating the GH joint too much, you’ll have to flatten your hand before you can begin your pull, you’ve just wasted a whole bunch of time and you’ll probably wind up with a shoulder injury.
I’ll have to try single arm with my arm by my side. Good points.
When you say your palm is facing out when you enter… do you mean that you palm is facing the pool wall (so your hand is on a 90 degree angle to the bottom) or that your palm is partly facing the wall partly to facing the bottom (your hand is 45 degree angle to the bottom) or what?
Not sure if that was addressed to me or the OP but when my hand enters my palm is facing… the bottom of the pool. Enter fingers first, palm is down but at that point would be at an angle - my shoulder extends, at the end of that my palm would be parallel with the pool floor I think. Then as you pull it becomes perpendicular to the floor
I’ll have to try single arm with my arm by my side. Good points.
When you say your palm is facing out when you enter… do you mean that you palm is facing the pool wall (so your hand is on a 90 degree angle to the bottom) or that your palm is partly facing the wall partly to facing the bottom (your hand is 45 degree angle to the bottom) or what?
Not sure if that was addressed to me or the OP but when my hand enters my palm is facing… the bottom of the pool. Enter fingers first, palm is down but at that point would be at an angle - my shoulder extends, at the end of that my palm would be parallel with the pool floor I think. Then as you pull it becomes perpendicular to the floor
I’m slightly tilted towards the thumb side, but only very slightly. I’ve found that when I’m flat to tilting towards my pinky, it’s too easy for me to drop my elbow first. Tilting a bit to the thumb prevents that.
We know that a slight inward turn is not a problem, so lets not confuse the OP.
We have to remember that we’re talking about the recovery here. The only real reason to talk about it is if it is causing a problem in the stroke (read, the part of the swimming motion that moves the swimmer across the pool) OP has had coaches say that it is causing a problem. I’ll assume that they are good coaches and assume that it is causing a problem, so how do we fix it? Over the internet, not very easily
I think recovery issues are usually a symptom of a timing/mechanics/stroke issues. Hand entry and arm recovery are very, very very small parts of swimming well. And, usually problems with these are just clues to something else being wrong. To obsess over hand entry is a total waste of time for most swimmers.
pinkie first might work, typically when people over compensate they end up in the middle somewhere.
Have you thought about using the buoy to slow down enough so that you can actually watch what you hand is doing while you swim.
Slapping the water with your palm? Not sure if it’s a drill or not.
You can do a catch up stroke, even though not really designed for this, modify it by watching how you hand enters and entering palm down or literally placing one hand on top of the other hand, the hand out in front being flat to pinkie rotated down a bit.
EDIT: at the pool this evening I tried finger tip drag with a slow entry where I focused on plopping my hand palm down in the water. Seemed to work well. You may want to put fins on for this to keep you up on the surface if not a fairly strong swimmer or you don’t glide much.
Sorry, was meant for the OP, should have been clearer. Interesting to hear what people do though.
Like you I enter mainly flat, index / middle first with thumb very slightly down.
DrDubs - I thought it was relevant to establish the severity of the problem because I think plenty of people try to correct things that don’t really need fixing. I agree 100% with you, hand entry is minor, that’s whay I wanted to get more info. I just should ahve explained myself better. We are talking about it because the OP thinks that it is a problem but we may have been able to say “don’t worry about it, that’s within the natural range”. After all, if the coach was that good he/she should been able to help better than just saying “really work on it”. That made me think that it could have been an average coach who’s trying to correct a problem because it doesn’t fit with his/her view of what looks right rather than figuring out if it is actually affecting stroke efficiency etc. I think we’ve all seen coaches like this.
Anyway, I’m digressing, a 90 degree ablge of entry is definitely not ideal.
TBinT: Couple of further questions. Are your shoulders super flexible? Where does you hand enter the water? How far do you rotate when you breathe?
The reason I ask. In my experince for most people it’s actually reasonably hard to enter palm out. It’s easier to do if (a) you enter with your hand very close to your head (b) if you over rotate when breathing (c) if you’re super flexible.
If you answer yes to a, b or c, different solutions will apply. If you answer no to all 3… Then you’re weird. Just kidding. Then I’ll need to think about it some more.
“Have you thought about using the buoy to slow down enough so that you can actually watch what you hand is doing while you swim.”
That is what the coach recommended. He said work on it for a week or 2.
He called my stroke the old “beer can” but I don’t really understand that desription (?) He said it is a common issue for kids and adults. It’s just a bit of added inefficiency in the early catch and he said its bad for the shoulder.
I agree with TC that I could make a decent fly swimmer. That just won’t help me in half irons My breastroke and back are both horrible, esp. for how decent a swimmer I am in the other 2.
“Are your shoulders super flexible? Where does you hand enter the water? How far do you rotate when you breathe?”
Average flexible, I would guess. Hand enters in front of my shoulder, or a bit further out. My rotation is pretty good, compared to most swimmers. Got the ole hip snap going. Stroke count of 16 average per 25 yard (partly from gliding better of the wall:-)
Coach said because of the extra twist my arm needs to make to pull water after it enters, it is more perilous on shoulders.
I am more concerned about swimming healthy (especially if I do modest to high volumes in spring and summer) than dropping time.
