My first marathon will be May 7 (Colorado Marathon in Ft. Collins). After reading the “Holy crap Marathons are tough!” thread, I’m fairly concerned about going out too fast and killing myself in the last 10k. I thought I could solicit opinions on pacing strategy, given some details from my training.
I’m using Hal Higdon’s 18-week novice marathon training program (http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/Mar00novice.htm). It includes 4 days of running (2 short-ish runs, 1 sorta-long run, and one long run). It also includes one day of cross training, but I swim and bike several days a week as well. Weekly mileage peaks at 40 miles, with the longest run being 20 miles. I started January 1, so my marathon fits the schedule perfectly. I’ve stuck to the schedule pretty strictly, only missing one short run in week 4.
I know this is a pretty low-mileage training program, but it is the most miles I have ever run per week. Before this, I was running two, maybe three times a week, with 7 miles being a long run for me. I was also very inconsistent before, running 3 miles one week and 15-20 the next.
Pacing anecdotes: My average pace for mid-week runs has gone from 8:28 min/mi in January to 8:06 for the last three weeks. My long runs have been in the 9:20 - 10:00 pace range. I ran a half marathon 3 weeks ago at a 7:44 pace. I started at 7:50 and ran the last 4 miles at around 7:30 pace. Today I ran 10k at a 7:35 pace and felt great (i.e., it didn’t feel hard). This was my fastest run all year. Last year I ran a 10k in 40:39 (6:33 pace) on a lot less than half of my current training volume.
My goals for this marathon are to enjoy it, negative split it, push myself a bit (but not to the max), and play it a bit conservatively. In other words, I don’t mind giving up 5 minutes or so if it gives me a better chance of avoiding the wall at mile 20.
So, let’s hear some pacing strategies! I can answer more questions if needed.
From what little I can see from your fitnees level, etc. I think Sub 3:30 (<8:00/mi)should be your goal. So… run 8s for 10mi. you should feel like you are holding back. If things are going well, knock it down to 7:45 until you hit the wall. Also, mix in one 22mi. training run about 3 weeks out if you can. It will help you hit the wall later rather than sooner. I used a loosely similar race day strategy when I ran 2:28 (a long time ago). Good Luck!!
Your V-dot is about 45 based on your half marathon, which points to a potential for 8 minute pace for the marathon but it really depends on how you do on getting the long runs in, how many of them and at what pace. One 20 miler at 9-10 minute pace is definitely on the easy/short side in terms of running sub 3:30 (8 min pace) - the race will be totally uncharted territory after the half, which, no coincidence, is when it gets hard. Sounds like you haven’t done much specific pace work. I’d start with a baseline pace of 9:00 per mile, then take your third longest long run, and adjust by 5 seconds per mile that you are over or under 20 miles on that long run. So for example if your third longest run was 23 miles, thats 3x5, or 15 seconds. Go out at 8:45. See what happens. If you feel good at mile 20, pick it up. If you only got to 17 miles in your third longest run in training, go out in 9:15. I just made all that up…it’s a bunch of BS, with maybe some tiny grain of validity. Ignore it. The real point is the first time around you really won’t know until it’s over, and you’ll be happier if you are little conservative. If you truly want to enjoy it, and negative split it, the first half has to feel dead easy. Not “that 10K at 7:35 pace felt great, not hard” easy, but “I could do this all day” easy. Do not go out faster than 8:30 pace. You have done an admirable job of completing the Novice training program, but don’t get cocky - do what that level of training has prepared you to do.
From what little I can see from your fitnees level, etc. I think Sub 3:30 (<8:00/mi)should be your goal. So… run 8s for 10mi. you should feel like you are holding back. If things are going well, knock it down to 7:45 until you hit the wall. Also, mix in one 22mi. training run about 3 weeks out if you can. It will help you hit the wall later rather than sooner. I used a loosely similar race day strategy when I ran 2:28 (a long time ago). Good Luck!!
But…I don’t want to hit the wall! For my first marathon I would rather try to enjoy it as much as possible and not flirt with hitting the wall. I’d prefer to lose 5 minutes (or possibly more) if it meant I would not hit the wall. From the other marathon thread it looks like I’m the classic wall-hitter, since my longest training run was 20 miles. I’m still hopeful that I can avoid the wall without totally dogging it, though.
And, it’s already too late to mix in the 22 mi training run. I’m 1.5 weeks out right now and already in taper.
Thanks for the advice and congrats on your 2:28, that is an awesome time.
Sorry, I didn’t notice the race date was so close. I hate to break it you… you will hit the wall. It is only a matter of when and how hard. But fear not! You will not hit it too hard based on the fact that you got some 20’s in. I would force myself to stay conservative and just enjoy the experience. Also, to aid in recovery after… walk even shuffle/jog for about 15 min on a soft surface the day after. I know it sounds ludicrous, but it really helps. again, good luck!
From the other marathon thread it looks like I’m the classic wall-hitter, since my longest training run was 20 miles. I’m still hopeful that I can avoid the wall without totally dogging it, though.
Not to minimize that your legs need to be tough and you need the muscular endurance, but remember that part of the traditional “wall” at 18-20 miles (2 hours, back when people ran marathons fast, on water and maybe a banana) is the glycogen depletion threshold when you’ve used up the 2000 kcal you’ve got stored - to minimize your impact with the wall, be smart about your fuel/fluids/electrolytes. As well as going out easy.
There’s no hard and fast rule that says there’s a wall and that you’re going to hit it. People who collapse late in races do so for one of two reasons, inadequate preparation or poor pacing.
If you’re prepared properly and you pace yourself properly your last 10K should be as fast as if not faster than your first 10K.
In my marathon PR I went through the half in 1:19 and ran the last 10K faster than the first, the last 5K faster than the first and my last mile was a 5:25 my fastest of the day and finished with a 2:37.
I’m not sure if the Higdon Novice Program really qualifies as training “properly”. I have no doubt it’s a fine program to get most new marathoners to the finish line, but honestly I’m not going to be happy with a 4-hour finish. Perhaps I should have undertaken a higher-mileage program, but I had enough nagging injuries to deal with just from this one.
Since I’ve never run a marathon, I’m having a hard time assessing my fitness and picking a goal time and pace - hence my post!
See number 2.
I hope not!
“If you’re prepared properly and you pace yourself properly your last 10K should be as fast as if not faster than your first 10K.”
Well, that’s what I’m hoping for, but it seems like a lot of people miss the mark on the elusive negative marathon split. First-time marathoners probably have an even tougher time.
This is an oldie but goodie. I used it in my last race, which was my slowest, but my “best” in some ways as I recovered my best from it and it was my only even-split marathon:
Try to stay 10 sec. per mile slower than goal pace for the first 10 miles … Try to go at or a tad faster than goal pace for the next 10 … The final 10K??? Just deal (you may have 1 tough mile, or it maybe 5).
You ought to go under 4 hours but 3:30 is a mission: Trust me if your half is 7:44 pace, don’t even try for 8 min. miles … But you should go well under 9s … Its up to you to figure out. I’ll just say that for me a half marathon at 6:30 pace is 10x easier than a marathon at 7-minute pace. And I’ve done 5 of each. good luck!
Focus, Grasshopper, Focus. When your wall greets you, follow the wall and you will find the door. Open the door and you will find your inner peace. Then run like the wind.
Here’s what worked for me. I’m much slower than you, but did negative split my last marathon and felt pretty good throughout almost the entire race (and, yes, there’s no getting around that hurt at the end). Break the race up into 5 mile goal times. The first 5 miles should be very slow, the middle three 5s at pace, and the last 10K as fast as you’re able. I ran a 4:18 and seeded myself with the 5:30 bunch at the start. Those folks run slow, so there was no pressure to dart out at the start. Mentally, this may be a challenge because it doesn’t feel like “racing” when you’re running slower than your regular long run training pace. But, after the first slow 5, I picked up the pace and kept it pretty steady for the next 15, passing people the entire way. I slowed down during the last 10K, but ran a faster pace than I did the first 5 miles. Voila, negative split.
Also, don’t forget nutrition. I alternated water, Powerade, and gels at every stop. By the end, I’d had 5-6 gels.
Amy - SHHH! You are giving it all away!
Just kidding - Mark - exactly like Amy said. Break the race into 5 mile segments and run them all close to even, if you can. FC is a hug downhill race - your legs will be hurting from all the downhill and uneven road. Hopefully you have been running downhills around Boulder like Flagstaff, Mesa, Sanitas, Linden etc.
I would say 3:30 is a good goal for you. Good luck!
Maybe I was lucky, but I had a great marathon and never hit “the wall”. I trained with a similar program as the one you did, although I did run a 22 & 23 mile long run, but my weekly mileage was the same as yours. I trained with a heart rate monitor and raced with it as well. I ran just over (heart rate) what I was supposed to but I think that was mostly adrenaline and not actual exertion. I made sure to drink a little something at every aid station (every 2 miles) and had a gel about every other after mile 10 or so. Your times sound just a little slower than mine, and I ran a 3:19 so I think the 3:30 is a good goal. Don’t think about the wall, just think about moving those feet and and how good it will feel to cross that finish line. Some good positive self talk is a good thing.
I ran my 1st last year (Philly) using a somewhat modified version of Hal’s novice program and my paces seem close to yours (though you’ve run a much faster 10k than I have as of yet). 1-20mi and 1-22mi run (at avg. pace of 8:11 & 8:30, respectively over a flat course) prior to race day.
I went out at roughly 8:30 at Philly for about 5mi, then dropped to about 8:15 for another 5. Next 10 I did about 8:00s. And then did what I could over the last 6.2. The last 6.2 was hard, but there was no “wall”. My pace over the last couple miles was my fastest of the day (7:3x). I obviously did a big negative split (1:49:39/1:41:23) so I arguably left some time on the course, but for my 1st I felt it was a huge pschological boost to be passing people over the back half of the race.
And I was plenty sore at the finish and in the days following. Good luck.
**"Today I ran 10k at a 7:35 pace and felt great (i.e., it didn’t feel hard). This was my fastest run all year. ** Last year I ran a 10k in 40:39 (6:33 pace) on a lot less than half of my current training volume.
Curious question: Why would run the 10K race that you did this year at roughly a minute/mile slower than you ran last year, when this year you were obviously in better shape?
I’m not sure if the Higdon Novice Program really qualifies as training “properly”. I have no doubt it’s a fine program to get most new marathoners to the finish line, but honestly I’m not going to be happy with a 4-hour finish. Perhaps I should have undertaken a higher-mileage program, but I had enough nagging injuries to deal with just from this one.
Since I’ve never run a marathon, I’m having a hard time assessing my fitness and picking a goal time and pace - hence my post!
See number 2.
I hope not!
“If you’re prepared properly and you pace yourself properly your last 10K should be as fast as if not faster than your first 10K.”
Well, that’s what I’m hoping for, but it seems like a lot of people miss the mark on the elusive negative marathon split. First-time marathoners probably have an even tougher time.
Part of your training should include tune up races. You should have several 10Ks and at least one race of half marathon distance or longer under your belt to assess your fitness level. There are lots of online calculators where you can punch in your half marathon time and it will give you a pretty good ballpark marathon time to shoot for.
Go out easy. You should be able to hold a conversation while running for at least the first half of the race. If you’re breathing hard at mile 10 you’ll be walking at mile 18.
I haven’t read every post on the thread, so may be repeating but bear with me:
I am pretty much in the same boat as you in terms of pace.
I may have been in better shape for my first marathon (this past november) because I had done a half IM in a PR time a month before, but I’m a generally slow (50%)runner. I can now pretty easily run a 1;45 half marathon in a half IM and believe I am very capable of running 1:40
Based on that and my expericne I think going 3:30 is not advisable. I was shooting for 3:40 and hit the wall…ended up with 3:49…very disappionting but here is what I learned and LISTEN UP!!!
Follow a 3:40 pacer (if htey have one at the race) and absolutely positivley stick with that person no matter how good you feel. Do not go ahead of them (you probably won’t fall behind them but a few seconds is okay). Stick with your pace and don’t listen to this crap abotu negative splitting. You may feel good at mile 17 or 20 and want to pick it up! Don’t do it. Stick to the pace. If by mile 22 you still feel decent turn it up a bit and let it hang…but in no uncertin terms may you go out too fast…please trust me. I learned the hard way.
