I’m training for my first full marathon in April and I’m currently following the Higdon Advanced 1 plan. The plan calls for race pace runs ranging from 5-10 mi on Saturdays and long, easy runs (ranging from 10-20 mi) on Sundays. At it’s peak the plan has a 10mi race pace run and 20mi slow run on the same weekend. I’m finding these back-to-back efforts to be pretty tough and thought about splitting them up to put a rest day or recovery run between them, but I read somewhere in the Higdon literature that it defeats the purpose to split them up. So I’m wondering - what is the specific training purpose or intended adaptation of having these two efforts back-to-back, and what would I be leaving on the table by splitting them up? Has anyone else used this plan and found the weekends a grind?
My background: male, 39 years old, 5’-10" 168lbs, I have about 7 years of decent running base under my belt but never really had the urge to run a full marathon until I got a chance to run Boston with a charity bib this year. Recent 5k and HM PR’s of 18:34 and 1:30:57 on about 25-30 mi per week. Currently about 3 weeks into the Higdon plan and running about 30 mi per week, but will peak around 55/week. I have a loose goal to BQ for 2017 (3:15) but I realize that’s pretty aggressive for my first marathon. Regardless it gives me a goal to train towards and the 7:15 pace seems achievable based on my previous results.
No training plan is etched in stone IMO. Could be this plan is just a tad aggressive for you, so you should adjust accordingly, and maybe take a rest day, or do fewer miles the day before the long run. I’m quite a bit older than you, and used Higdon’s Novice 1 program for all 6 of my recent marathons. I started late in life, too, at the age of 65. The Novice plan doesn’t call for a race pace effort the day before the long slow day, rather it calls for a day of rest, and it worked fine for me. FYI: 5K 26:00, HM 2:03 and Mary 4:39 PR at age 68. Best of luck, and perhaps you will get better advice from someone nearer your age who is more familiar with a stronger race approach.
Thanks for sharing, it sounds like you’ve had pretty solid results using the Higdon plan. I think you’re right, it shouldn’t be etched in stone but I also don’t want to lose out on a specific benefit by tweaking it too much. For now I’m playing it by ear and adding in an extra rest day or subbing in a bike ride in place of one of the short easy runs here and there for some added recovery. We’ll see how it goes when the mileage really starts to build on the weekends!
I’ve used Hal’s marathon plans 3 times now (including Adv1) , and I’ve found the weekend structure to be hugely beneficial, especially in the later weeks. The Saturdays were great for dialing in the feeling of race pace until it became second nature, and Sundays teach you how to run on tired legs (which will no doubt happen in the marathon) as well as encourage you to not run too fast during the long runs. Since you’re still early I’d say stick with it for now and if you don’t think you can pull off the 30mi weekends later swap the friday rest with the saturday pace run. Yes it may feel like a grind, but that grind is specifically designed to make you stronger.
Of course, as always, this is only my view on it. YMMV.
True, I’m leaving a couple minutes of wiggle room since the cutoff has been a couple minutes faster than the posted qualifying times the last couple years.
My background: male, 39 years old, 5’-10" 168lbs, I have about 7 years of decent running base under my belt but never really had the urge to run a full marathon until I got a chance to run Boston with a charity bib this year.** Recent 5k and HM PR’s of 18:34 and 1:30:57 on about 25-30 mi per week**. Currently about 3 weeks into the Higdon plan and running about 30 mi per week, but will peak around 55/week. I have a loose goal to BQ for 2017 (3:15) but I realize that’s pretty aggressive for my first marathon. Regardless it gives me a goal to train towards and the 7:15 pace seems achievable based on my previous results.
If those are very recent PRs, then I think with a mileage bump alone you will go under 3:15 without much trouble.
One thing to keep in mind if you actually want to run Boston: Aim for BQ - 3mins if you want to be safe to get in. A BQ time isn’t enough anymore.
EDIT: just noticed your post above. Looks like you’re already factoring that in.
I’m somewhat familiar with Higdon and his plans are good. I have also done Hanson & Daniels, which alos have pros and cons.
Remember to warm up with those M pace runs, so it might be more like 1-2 miles easy THEN drop to 5 to 10 mi (max!) at M pace + 10 minutes easy cooldown. Once you get to 5-6 mi M pace, very few minutes should ever be run any faster during .
The X-long run should be quite mellow (Most of it can even be 90+ sec, slower than M pace) and should only really hurt toward the end & later (Like the above poster said: Running on tired legs for up to 30 miles in less than a 30 hour period builds durablility).
A big thing runners need to do is listen to their body. I’m convinced that the “same thing every week” or, worse track workouts “every Tuesday” is a recipe for disaster.
If you only end up with two or three solid weekends of “6-10 M pace Saturday and 15-20 long run Sunday” in a month, that can work … provided the other weekends are close (a bit slower or a bit less mileage, for example).
But I would say those weekends are the key, along with running 6 days a week & running 75-85 % of miles easy (slower than M pace).
The other speed & tempo stuff are less important and more risky, whether you are a 3-hour guy running repeat halfs @ 2:40 or a 4:30 guy doing 4+ minute halfs. So keep that in mind.
… One more thing a lot of marathoners will tell you is to schedule in a haf about 10 weeks before the full. Taper a bit for it & run it hard and recover. The rule of thumb for the 3-3:30 marathon crowd is take that half time, double it & add 15 minutes for a truly realistic marathon goal time. Good luck!
My background: male, 39 years old, 5’-10" 168lbs, I have about 7 years of decent running base under my belt but never really had the urge to run a full marathon until I got a chance to run Boston with a charity bib this year.** Recent 5k and HM PR’s of 18:34 and 1:30:57 on about 25-30 mi per week**. Currently about 3 weeks into the Higdon plan and running about 30 mi per week, but will peak around 55/week. I have a loose goal to BQ for 2017 (3:15) but I realize that’s pretty aggressive for my first marathon. Regardless it gives me a goal to train towards and the 7:15 pace seems achievable based on my previous results.
If those are very recent PRs, then I think with a mileage bump alone you will go under 3:15 without much trouble.
One thing to keep in mind if you actually want to run Boston: Aim for BQ - 3mins if you want to be safe to get in. A BQ time isn’t enough anymore.
EDIT: just noticed your post above. Looks like you’re already factoring that in.
i run 70-90 mpw, peaking 100… and my 5k pr is close to yours, my half though is 1:24. I usually run under 3 for the marathon. You have the speed, just creep up the miles carefully
I’ve used Hal’s marathon plans 3 times now (including Adv1) , and I’ve found the weekend structure to be hugely beneficial, especially in the later weeks. The Saturdays were great for dialing in the feeling of race pace until it became second nature, and Sundays teach you how to run on tired legs (which will no doubt happen in the marathon) as well as encourage you to not run too fast during the long runs. Since you’re still early I’d say stick with it for now and if you don’t think you can pull off the 30mi weekends later swap the friday rest with the saturday pace run. Yes it may feel like a grind, but that grind is specifically designed to make you stronger.
Of course, as always, this is only my view on it. YMMV.
My background: male, 39 years old, 5’-10" 168lbs, I have about 7 years of decent running base under my belt but never really had the urge to run a full marathon until I got a chance to run Boston with a charity bib this year.** Recent 5k and HM PR’s of 18:34 and 1:30:57 on about 25-30 mi per week**. Currently about 3 weeks into the Higdon plan and running about 30 mi per week, but will peak around 55/week. I have a loose goal to BQ for 2017 (3:15) but I realize that’s pretty aggressive for my first marathon. Regardless it gives me a goal to train towards and the 7:15 pace seems achievable based on my previous results.
If those are very recent PRs, then I think with a mileage bump alone you will go under 3:15 without much trouble.
One thing to keep in mind if you actually want to run Boston: Aim for BQ - 3mins if you want to be safe to get in. A BQ time isn’t enough anymore.
EDIT: just noticed your post above. Looks like you’re already factoring that in.
HM was 11/1/15 and 5k was 11/26/15 so both within roughly the last 2 months.
i run 70-90 mpw, peaking 100… and my 5k pr is close to yours, my half though is 1:24. I usually run under 3 for the marathon. You have the speed, just creep up the miles carefully
What does your training look like when building for a marathon? How much speed/quality stuff vs. slower, easier stuff?
I’m coming to the end of my marathon buildup using the same Higdon plan (2 weeks until Houston). I’ve done most of the weekend runs as prescribed and while tough in the beginning I think it was more mental. As I got used to the rhythm of the schedule, they became easier. The few times I didn’t do them as prescribed it was something else that forced a schedule change (weather, family, etc.).
Btw, I always added about 1.5 miles to the Saturday pace runs. I’d do the first mile at marathon pace plus 1 minute to warmup. Then do what was on the plan plus about another half mile to cool down.
my two thoughts are, first, it’s good to be able to run a marathon to get to know what marathons are like; and second, to listen to your body. it’s a very tough line to follow, because you need to beat yourself up enough in order to be able to deal with the pounding of a marathon but not get yourself injured and sidelined.
so i guess my question would be, what’s your goal here? is it to finish a marathon, period? or would it only be worth it if it’s decently fast? if the latter, might as well stick with a relatively aggressive plan.
I’m coming to the end of my marathon buildup using the same Higdon plan (2 weeks until Houston). I’ve done most of the weekend runs as prescribed and while tough in the beginning I think it was more mental. As I got used to the rhythm of the schedule, they became easier. The few times I didn’t do them as prescribed it was something else that forced a schedule change (weather, family, etc.).
Btw, I always added about 1.5 miles to the Saturday pace runs. I’d do the first mile at marathon pace plus 1 minute to warmup. Then do what was on the plan plus about another half mile to cool down.
Cool, good advice on the Saturday runs. I did 6 miles at race pace today and probably should have warmed up better. Good luck with your upcoming race!
my two thoughts are, first, it’s good to be able to run a marathon to get to know what marathons are like; and second, to listen to your body. it’s a very tough line to follow, because you need to beat yourself up enough in order to be able to deal with the pounding of a marathon but not get yourself injured and sidelined.
so i guess my question would be, what’s your goal here? is it to finish a marathon, period? or would it only be worth it if it’s decently fast? if the latter, might as well stick with a relatively aggressive plan.
My goal is not just to finish but to be decently fast and hopefully BQ fro 2017.
My only advice is when the plan calls for easy…DO EASY!!! Sometimes it is absurd how easy you should be running.[/quote
This. I used the plan but ran the slow runs way too fast and that didn’t get me the base I needed with a 20 mile max distance training run. Blew up hard at about mile 20 - go figure - chugged into 3:27. Either need a longer max distance training run or to really slow down.
The Higdon plans are good…and as you said there is a reason the pace runs the day prior to the long runs are in there. If you split them up you will not be getting the intended training adaptation. The rest of the week on the Adv1 Higdon is low to moderate volume, and you’ll find that as you get into wks 9-15 your body will be tuned to the process. You’re a strong runner with 5k and 1/2 times that you describe, but those were done on low volume training. You’re moving into a program that will be about 15-20mi/wk more at peak than what you’ve done, and what you’re feeling is the mental/physical adaptation from moving into more volume and the back-to-back days.
Give the Higdon approach a fair shake- you’ll be surprised at how strong you can get off of the Sat/Sun approach in the Adv1. If need be, back off a little on the Sat run intensity and worry more about completing the volume once in a while…work off of your feelings/RPE rather than the rx’ed number to hit.