Finish this sentence... Praying mantis aerobar position is better if

Triathlon Forum
1

… ____________________________________________ (aside from aerodynamics…)

Thinking some answers could be…

Better if you sit further… forward/back???
Have larger/smaller crank arm???
Like having total front end higher/lower
Wear X type of helmet…

However, interested in hearing Your Thoughts…

Essentially, what I am trying to gather (aside from being perhaps more aero) is why people prefer it…

Personally, just from looking at it, I always thought it would be more comfortable… But, when I’ve tried the position I’ve always shied away. Instead, I use parallels to ground s bars with hand position on up the angled part and in a more ‘choke up’ position with the pads a little closer to forearms than most. It takes some seasonal ‘adaptation’ and has never felt ‘optimal’. I am theorizing that why I use this position versus the higher position is…

  1. In the area I live there are not a lot of bike lanes, a lot of potholes and undulating roads, insane drivers, and I feel that slightly choked up S position gives me ‘better control’.
    and
  2. (i’m not so sure of this one…) That from recent revelations it seems that I have a very large crank-arm length for my size and maybe this position helps me ‘scrape’ the bottom of the pedal stroke more…

This is kind of self reflective, but, the point to share my experience and learn how others feel…

Thanks for reading. Looking forward to understanding what your perspective is. Chris

2

……. the wind tunnel says so.

I’m not sure there is another answer is there?

3

…… it allows ur shoulders to drop and head to tuck down and in?

I believe it was testing from findingfreestyle? Trentnix? Desert dude ? That says parallel bars are actually faster IF all things are the same, eg head position etc etc……i think the idea with high hands position is to allow that change though. To allow other portions of the body to become more aerodynamic.

Fwiw I have a trek sc and ran s-shaped bars for ages before swapping to plug-in and now using zipp vuka 70, with only a small amount of tilt (about 5 degrees). I tried higher hands and couldn’t get as comfy, aero be damned. Ymmv

4

…if you actually need glasses to read your computer but prefer to race without them
.

5

Ask the guy in my club with two broken wrists and grazes full body after he ran up the back of a car last month. Hands high head down, no vision.

It should be banned, so dangerous

6

Ask the guy in my club with two broken wrists and grazes full body after he ran up the back of a car last month. Hands high head down, no vision.

It should be banned, so dangerous

Need to separate the two variables. The problem is head down, which is independent from high hands.

Edit. Better will be determined only after testing, which in this specific instance shouldn’t be too difficult.

7

I think refer to Cam Wurf position slight rise at front. Or frodo flat at front but very close together not many amateurs can hold such tight arm position for 180km. I think width of arms much bigger impact then angle of aero gains.

I cant recall the exact source it may have been GCN did some research into arm angle with them finding flat arms was the fastest position but not much between the various angles options . They went on to suggest slight tilt supported comfort and therefore the rider could stay aero longer so likely the best option overall.

Im very much against high hands due to safety but understand many find that comfortable so it is each person’s decision for them and if it feels good for you definitely go for it. Just dont forget to look what’s ahead.

8

I think refer to Cam Wurf position slight rise at front. Or frodo flat at front but very close together not many amateurs can hold such tight arm position for 180km. I think width of arms much bigger impact then angle of aero gains.

I cant recall the exact source it may have been GCN did some research into arm angle with them finding flat arms was the fastest position but not much between the various angles options . They went on to suggest slight tilt supported comfort and therefore the rider could stay aero longer so likely the best option overall.

Im very much against high hands due to safety but understand many find that comfortable so it is each person’s decision for them and if it feels good for you definitely go for it. Just dont forget to look what’s ahead.

A lot depends on the specific rider regarding angle of the bars. For me, going from arms flat to a very high hands position resulted in a lot of drag reduction. For my wife, the opposite was true.

Stability and handling is no different, as the primary weightbearing contact points on the aerobars will be the same in either setup. Arm separation, though, will have a handling impact.

9

… ____________________________________________ (aside from aerodynamics…)

…
Thanks for reading. Looking forward to understanding what your perspective is. Chris

If you’re not testing you’re guessing on this position, well any position. So if you’re not testing use what’s most comfy and you can sustain the position most often, as long as it’s safe.

10

Ask the guy in my club with two broken wrists and grazes full body after he ran up the back of a car last month. Hands high head down, no vision.

It should be banned, so dangerous

Your club mate should be banned, not the high hands position. No one says you should drop your head just because your hands are up.

11

…if it feels more comfortable. It’s that simple for me. It feels so much better and easy to hold the position.

12

I think refer to Cam Wurf position slight rise at front. Or frodo flat at front but very close together not many amateurs can hold such tight arm position for 180km. I think width of arms much bigger impact then angle of aero gains.

I cant recall the exact source it may have been GCN did some research into arm angle with them finding flat arms was the fastest position but not much between the various angles options . They went on to suggest slight tilt supported comfort and therefore the rider could stay aero longer so likely the best option overall.

Im very much against high hands due to safety but understand many find that comfortable so it is each person’s decision for them and if it feels good for you definitely go for it. Just dont forget to look what’s ahead.

You make great points. Triathlon is a joke. Next week everyone will be flat again because it’s more aero. Lmao. Trends are continuously back and forth and my opinion is to do what is best for the individual as trends change overnight in this sport. It changes so much it’s laughable.

13

I think refer to Cam Wurf position slight rise at front. Or frodo flat at front but very close together not many amateurs can hold such tight arm position for 180km. I think width of arms much bigger impact then angle of aero gains.

I cant recall the exact source it may have been GCN did some research into arm angle with them finding flat arms was the fastest position but not much between the various angles options . They went on to suggest slight tilt supported comfort and therefore the rider could stay aero longer so likely the best option overall.

Im very much against high hands due to safety but understand many find that comfortable so it is each person’s decision for them and if it feels good for you definitely go for it. Just dont forget to look what’s ahead.

As a general rule, I recommend NOT getting your tech or aero advice from GCN videos.

14

……. the wind tunnel says so.

I’m not sure there is another answer is there?

You have to be able to hold it for a full race distance as well. Aero for a 20 mile TT is out the window if you’re position gets loose after 80 miles of an IM.

15

… ____________________________________________ (aside from aerodynamics…)

Thinking some answers could be…

Better if you sit further… forward/back???
Have larger/smaller crank arm???
Like having total front end higher/lower
Wear X type of helmet…

However, interested in hearing Your Thoughts…

Essentially, what I am trying to gather (aside from being perhaps more aero) is why people prefer it…

Personally, just from looking at it, I always thought it would be more comfortable… But, when I’ve tried the position I’ve always shied away. Instead, I use parallels to ground s bars with hand position on up the angled part and in a more ‘choke up’ position with the pads a little closer to forearms than most. It takes some seasonal ‘adaptation’ and has never felt ‘optimal’. I am theorizing that why I use this position versus the higher position is…

  1. In the area I live there are not a lot of bike lanes, a lot of potholes and undulating roads, insane drivers, and I feel that slightly choked up S position gives me ‘better control’.
    and
  2. (i’m not so sure of this one…) That from recent revelations it seems that I have a very large crank-arm length for my size and maybe this position helps me ‘scrape’ the bottom of the pedal stroke more…

This is kind of self reflective, but, the point to share my experience and learn how others feel…

Thanks for reading. Looking forward to understanding what your perspective is. Chris

Testing is the only way to know, but few people (very few in North America), have any understanding of this position or how to fit it. It’s far more than simply angling your forearms up from level or even raised. It’s a different position, and there are many adjustments that must be made to achieve a proper Mantis.

First, though, how do you define Mantis position? What angle are your forearms? At a certain angle, usually as you approach, or go over, 20 degrees, you’ll need support at the back of your elbows. This will not only give you proper support, but also better control over your bike. Mantis, in my mind, is any position that requires this type of support. Even with proper position adjustments and elbow support, not everyone can achieve Mantis comfortably. For those who can achieve it, it’s incredibly comfortable.

I was completely against Mantis, and tried to deny it for two years, but after testing hundreds of athletes in proper Mantis positions, I finally had to give in because there’s no doubt it’s the fastest position for the majority of people who can achieve it, and you’ll soon see products designed around this position to make it more comfortable and even faster. Still, I caution anyone to try this position unless they are already competent bike handlers, and there’s no doubt that, while it’s much easier to look forward with your head low in this position, your hands do compromise your field of view. Despite all the data, I still put very few people in this position. Arms angled up? Yes. Mantis, not so much.

16

… ____________________________________________ (aside from aerodynamics…)

First, though, how do you define Mantis position? What angle are your forearms? At a certain angle, usually as you approach, or go over, 20 degrees, you’ll need support at the back of your elbows. This will not only give you proper support, but also better control over your bike. Mantis, in my mind, is any position that requires this type of support. Even with proper position adjustments and elbow support, not everyone can achieve Mantis comfortably**. For those who can achieve it, it’s incredibly comfortable. **

I was completely against Mantis, and tried to deny it for two years, but after testing hundreds of athletes in proper Mantis positions, I finally had to give in because there’s no doubt it’s the fastest position for the majority of people who can achieve it, and you’ll soon see products designed around this position to make it more comfortable and even faster. Still, I caution anyone to try this position unless they are already competent bike handlers, and there’s no doubt that, while it’s much easier to look forward with your head low in this position, your hands do compromise your field of view. Despite all the data, I still put very few people in this position. Arms angled up? Yes. Mantis, not so much.

Thank you–this is very well presented. For me, I found that the Mantis position to be remarkably comfortable, much, much more so than more traditional aerobar positions. Initially, equipment was a big limiter, so I would have to use clip on aerobars (Vision) on an aero base bar. This would enable me to achieve a high hands position (which worked well for me), and still have some support for my elbows. The downside of this was that I needed to extend the reach to my base bar, as rotating the aero bars up shifted the pads back, which reduced reach.

A high hands position doesn’t need to compromise vision, either, with some moderate care in setup. But as you indicate, getting set in a true Mantis position will take work, and one still will need to do some testing.

I like your post a lot!

17

If you’re a Praying Mantis
.

18

Ask the guy in my club with two broken wrists and grazes full body after he ran up the back of a car last month. Hands high head down, no vision.

It should be banned, so dangerous

This could be true of basically any position… A position doesn’t fix stupid.

19

Ask the guy in my club with two broken wrists and grazes full body after he ran up the back of a car last month. Hands high head down, no vision.

It should be banned, so dangerous

This could be true of basically any position… A position doesn’t fix stupid.

absolutely

20

Agreed. Not sure why anyone would be riding without looking forward as ‘their position’. Actually, the fact that the computer could be visible while looking forward is something that interests me in the position. Looking down (despite briefly) is not something I like to do.