Felt F4 review? vs R3?

Triathlon Forum
1

I have been looking for a road bike for a while. I am between Cervelo R3 and Felt F4,…still haven’t ruled out caad10 either. For some racing and long training group rides.

I know and like the R3, but have not had an opportunity to ride F4 or know much about it. I do know its geometry is better for me though.

Felt frame in F lineup is different depending on #. Where R3 frame is always the same, with different components.

How they compare I am unsure, any comparison or review of F series would be greatly appreciated.

edit:

I should say I am leaning towards the Felt, but I am very concerned.

Cervelo R3 with ultegra is 3900$, Felt F4 (ultegra) is 2700

I am concerned that Felt’s frame has cheap carbon, or perhaps these bikes are just not comparable.

Like I said R3 frame doesnt change, but even with 105 components, the R3 is 2600 and Felt F5 (105) is 2000$. Just caused some question in my mind.

2

Geometry, geometry, geometry. Very different bikes in terms of fit. Otherwise, they are comparable bikes just different companies.

The Felt frame has all the bells and whistles of the R3 frame. Tapered steerer, oversize bb, sub 1000 gram weight. I think the MSRP on the frames is slightly different, like $1700 v. $2200-2400 for the Cervelo. I don’t think its a matter of “cheap carbon” though. Its more reflective of the companies pricing structures, build kits, market demand, etc. I’d say you’re looking at two companies who probably approach manufacturing and marketing slightly differently and its reflected in the price of their bikes. Cervelo to justify the price would probably point to things learned from their California project and that the R3 is an evolution of a frame that has been ridden in grand tours. Felt has a traditional trickle down technology for their FC.

The specs for the 2 Ultegra builds are slightly different, I think the Cervelo is a little nicer. Rotor crank, 3T stem, Ultegra brakes, Fulcrum wheels v. unbranded brakes, Gossamer cranks, Felt components and Shimano’s RS10 wheels.

3

The higher F series use a different grade of carbon (T700) versus the more expensive ones (F1 and F2). That said, I’d pay more attention to geometry than anything else. The frames are quite comparable between the R3 and the F3/4/5.

4

I might be able to help a bit- I have a 07/08ish Felt F2 and a 2012 Caad10. I’m 5’11" with long legs and arms and I ride 56cm with a 120 mm stem on both (Wobblenaught fit).

I raced the F2 3 seasons - 09/10/11 and just started racing the Caad10 this year. Had a different bike last year.

The Felt F2 actually rides a bit harsher than the Caad10 in my opinion. Might be a function of the carbon fiber, or the nature of the more compact frame that doesn’t allow for as much flex.

The Felt also has very tight tire clearance on the frame and (I think) fork too. Alot of 23’s are actually somewhat tight, and you are almost guaranteed to be screwed if your wheel goes out of true. The Caad10 could probably fit 28’s but I haven’t tried yet.

The clearcoat on the Felt F2 started cracking on the chainstays near the BB in the first year I had it. I actually thought the frame was cracked, but the bike shop cleared me to ride it and it has probably 20,000 miles on it since.

I have crashed the F2 a couple times and it held up just fine (one crash was really bad). My first crash on the Cannondale, the handlebars swung around and dented the aluminum and I replaced it with another Caad10 frame. Kind of sad for only having a couple thousand miles.

If you have any other questions let me know. For context, I race (only road) and I’m a cat 2. Been riding a while.

-Physiojoe

5

I have been looking for a road bike for a while. I am between Cervelo R3 and Felt F4,…still haven’t ruled out caad10 either. For some racing and long training group rides.

I know and like the R3, but have not had an opportunity to ride F4 or know much about it. I do know its geometry is better for me though.

Felt frame in F lineup is different depending on #. Where R3 frame is always the same, with different components.

How they compare I am unsure, any comparison or review of F series would be greatly appreciated.

edit:

I should say I am leaning towards the Felt, but I am very concerned.

Cervelo R3 with ultegra is 3900$, Felt F4 (ultegra) is 2700

I am concerned that Felt’s frame has cheap carbon, or perhaps these bikes are just not comparable.

Like I said R3 frame doesnt change, but even with 105 components, the R3 is 2600 and Felt F5 (105) is 2000$. Just caused some question in my mind.

Let me start by saying there are almost no “bad” bikes on the market today if you are spending $3000. The above poster that reported on his experience with a 2007/2008 Felt F2 won’t provide especially useful feedback as that frame, its construction method and engineering metrics have long since been retired. The new F-series molds fit 25mm tires, indeed both Garmin and Argos used Vittoria’s 25mm tubulars in their bikes.

The Felt F4 uses a blend of carbon fiber materials in the lay up. It uses the InsideOut molding process that our F1 and F2 use. The F3, F4, F5, and F6 use a mix of tough fibers to withstand the rigors of road use and provide compliance in the vertical plane. 5T, 24T, 30T, etc… are among the flavors. There is good information out there that can help you understand why and where these materials are used. Here’s one source: http://www.skchemicals.com/...ind/flex/sitemap.asp

It is important to understand why the properties favor a particular usage. Fiberglass is used on Felt frames. We use it only on bond areas that get machined before gluing such as the inside of the ends of the stays when they are bonded to aluminum dropouts. Some of our competitors use fiberglass in the lay-up itself using it as a strength additive and cost saving measure.

I would be shocked to learn that an R3 had some of the more exotic and costly materials like our UHC Ultimate’s nano-resin, 60T carbon fibers and Oxeon’s TeXtreme spread tow fabric with FAW as low as 76gsm.

What has you concerned that the Felt uses “cheap carbon” and what constitutes cheap carbon in your mind?

If the Felt were more expensive would it provide more credibility to our unrivaled investment in carbon technology and manufacturing?

The fit is going to be the biggest difference. The R3 is more similar to our Z series in terms of S/R. The CAAD10 and F are closer.

If you have any specific questions about the nitty gritty of the frame lay up, the materials source and usage in terms of why and where the different fiber properties are used, or the differences between the Felt construction methods let me know.

-SD

6

SuperDave, I will admit “cheap” was a very poor word.

I greatly appreciate your response, pretty indepth and exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!

7

Noof,

I’ll offer my two cents – I bought a 2012 R3 in December and have found it to be a rock-solid, compliant, fast bike. I purchased the R3 Rival and had the derailleurs, brakes, and shifters swapped out to Ultegra before delivery.

I’ve clipped PD T4 Carbon aeros to the R3 and spend most of my time on them. For me (6’5”, 195lbs, with rotator cuff / shoulder issues), the R3 provides a comfortable aero position (spent the whole 3 + hrs of IM 70.3 Galveston on the aeros).

Because I spend the lion’s share of the time on the aeros, I may at some point switch to a tri bike, but so far I haven’t test-driven one which didn’t result in shoulder pain.

Good luck with whichever bike you choose.

8

Never owned a Cervelo but have owned 2 Felts. Both were very comfortable, very reliable and a joy to ride. One was a F series bike and my current is a 2013 B12 tri bike. Felt makes a quality bike.

9

To summarize, when both companies are using ultegra components, but one is 1200$ more, it makes you wonder. For me, I became concerned there may have been corners cut on the felt frame. Thanks to SuperDave’s info, this isn’t the case.

Good reviews from both sides, I will have to just get on an F4 and see for myself. I’ll leave some feedback for those who find this in a similar situation.

10

To summarize, when both companies are using ultegra components, but one is 1200$ more, it makes you wonder. For me, I became concerned there may have been corners cut on the felt frame. Thanks to SuperDave’s info, this isn’t the case.

Good reviews from both sides, I will have to just get on an F4 and see for myself. I’ll leave some feedback for those who find this in a similar situation.

I’ve got some insight as to how we do this as I’m the lucky one that gets to select the components used on our bicycles.

The Felt F4 has FSA’s ~750g BB30 crankset. We’ve established an excellent relationship with FSA and they make many custom parts for our bicycles. This relationship helps us create better bicycles. In the case of the F4, the FSA BB30 bottom bracket bearings are far less expensive than an Ultegra BB.

Our tech center in Irvine, CA is about 1km away from Shimano USA and we get to spend a bunch of time with their staff on lunch rides, weekend races, and when developing new platforms. It’s a big advantage for us to be able to bring prototypes to their engineers for feedback on future compatibility of products. If we can design a cyclo-cross bike that works with hydraulic disc brakes and Di2 two years ago we can save thousands of dollars in re-tooling costs vs. some of our competitors that missed the Di2 or hydro boat.

We can “print” new designs in house and cross check with pre-production samples or even unify common goals like Shimano and Trek did with the new direct mount caliper brakes.

Speaking of brakes, the F4 uses Shimano 105 caliper brakes, not Ultegra. The brake pads for Shimano’s DA, Ult, and 105 brakes are all the same on their standard calipers. Dura-Ace brakes offer different compounds and pad thicknesses for different rim widths and materials but the actual brake pad for aluminum rims on a Dura-Ace brake is the identical part in a 105 brake. If I can save $100 retail by using 105 brakes instead of Ultegra without a loss of performance I’ll do it. The 105 calipers might be 30g heavier but the spec change allows me to spend that $100 on lighter .65mm inner tubes, 150tpi tires, custom polycarbonate headset spacers (instead of aluminum), Saddles with carbon injected saddle bases and CrNTi rails saddles instead of nylon + steel. $100 can go a long way to offset the 30g brake weight difference. There are 30g to be saved with a headset alone.

I haven’t spent any time on a new R3 but I’ve ridden the older low-head tube, 399mm chainstay equipped R3SL and found it to be a great bike. The ride quality and drivetrain rigidity were an important data point used for comparative analysis when developing our own bikes. We’ve got a section of our warehouse that stores all different competitors bikes that we use to measure and test against our own developing products. Cervelo is among the few brands that have consistently been used to set the bar in our industry (RCA) and we aim to exceed at Felt. If the new R3’s taller head tube, seat, and head angle differences suit you as it has with the above poster’s shoulder injury I’m sure you’ll like the bike. If you wanted a more aggressive fit and you wish to include other items with your purchase such as a professional fit or carbon wheels or matching helmet and shoes and your budget is $4000 the Felt will get you under that mark with all the extras.

Where are you located? Perhaps we’ve got a Demo Tour stop nearby in the future or I can point you to a dealer who stocks the carbon F-series bikes.

-SD

11

To summarize, when both companies are using ultegra components, but one is 1200$ more, it makes you wonder.

As I pointed out before, whether or not the Cervelo’s components are “better” may be up for debate but they are certainly considered “higher end.” The Fulcrum wheels are 100 grams lighter, the stem and seatpost are name brand. The price difference is not a result of just the frames.

12

Incredible! Thank you kindly for that SD, very informative and much appreciated! The Felt geometry is certainly what I am after, and it suits me better. It’s good to hear (reassuring) this sort of information. I’ll report back after a test drive for sure.

13

Incredible! Thank you kindly for that SD, very informative and much appreciated! The Felt geometry is certainly what I am after, and it suits me better. It’s good to hear (reassuring) this sort of information. I’ll report back after a test drive for sure.

Did you get a chance to ride the F-series carbon bike(s)?
-SD

14

Here is what I ended up with, quite a long time coming I know. I wanted to get quality time with this bike before talking to much about it.

My experience with Cervelo’s 2013 S5 has been mostly great. It begs to go fast, holds well in ghost aero position, I loved the locked in feeling I could get and really push big watts, and especially a joy to ride on the flats. There is a trade off which took a fair amount of riding to become noticeable. It’s a little heavy. It feels a little squishy in the front end which is not always noticeable. Perhaps a better way to say this would be, it isn’t as responsive as I would like. You cannot use 25mm tires, and riding mostly in the (P)ottawa area, a little bit of comfort goes a long way ( the roads here can be unforgiving ). It gives about the same amount of road feedback as my CAAD10, riding anything over 3 hours becomes uncomfortable. With that said, i’ve been told I have an aggressive position. Personally, I don’t see the point in buying a race bike and riding it standing tall.

Anyway, I’ve decided to move onto something else for next year. So I’m back to considering an R3, Felt F, Giant TCR AD SL, Cervelo S3. Maybe this time Felt will win my heart :wink:

http://photos-b.ak.instagram.com/hphotos-ak-xpa1/10507927_247083798749353_935129358_n.jpg

15

Nice build on the S5. I’m curious why you’d choose to look at the F-series when the AR is more similar to the other bikes you’re comparing R3 notwithstanding.

The new R3 from Cervelo finally fits larger tires. I know Heather there was a big advocate for this and I’d expect their future products to accommodate the bigger rubber.
I can get 27mm Pave or Challenge’s Paris R#####x tires in my F1 and I’m running some 25mm tires on my AR.

Your little niggles regarding the S5 are supposed to be solved on the new S3 and of course the new NEW S5 has been beefed up according to what I’ve read and the HT is a bit lower.

I’d encourage you to find an AR and give it the 3 hour ride test. I think you’d be impressed especially with the VR post option.

I just finished up a 7:01 ride here in Taiwan and while I’m not fresh as a daisy, I’m not battered enough to avoid getting up tomorrow morning and getting out for a couple more hours.

All the best with you and your search. Let me know if you have any specific questions about the Felt or general questions about the bikes you’re comparing us to.

-SD

16

Thanks for getting back to me! I decided to make this public instead of PM just to have the info out there.

After having two seasons with an aero bike, I’ve really enjoyed it, but it’s time for something new. I’ve learned I care more about it being stiff and light than aero. I travel a fair bit and I like to take my bike. I’ve been spending sometime in Newfoundland lately. The hills are incredibly frightening…terrifying even…steep!! It’s actually unreal at times. Mixed with gusts of wind to be the norm there…I’m interested in two bikes, Felt F3 and Giant TCR Advanced Pro. Ironically enough, Argos-Shimano switched to Giant-Shimano. I was hoping to find some information out there, but nothing is published comparison wise.

I believe both bikes to be light, I would not be surprised if Giant was more so but not enough for me to care.

I have no idea which is more stiff… I do know with either the Felt F3 or Giant Ad Pro I would be getting the 2nd highest grade of carbon either company offers. Giant is a taiwanese bike… are Felts actually manufactured in America? My understanding is Felt is the one of the last manufacturers to stay in China. Or is just assembly? Felts steerer is a little bigger than Giant, and a lot bigger than Cervelo. I would think this would make Felt quite stiff in the front end. Stiffness in the rear… I’m not sure I would notice a difference. I would have to do a fair bit of riding to tell. If the lads in the peloton can ride for 5 hours I’m sure I can get by. What really makes a difference here is tire and pressure. Any issues with 25mm tires on Felt F3? I know Giant TCR are good to go in that regard.

The fit of Felt bikes have always been an attraction for me. In comparison to Cervelo S5 the F3 has a shorter head tube and is lower? shorter? in frame as well. I use a -17stem on the S5 I think I could achieve the same position on a Felt bike. I like to sit far forward sort of a TT position. That’s a little bit of concern. I’m not extremely fond of how tall my CAAD10 is, seeing the numbers for Felt I believe I would be sitting like goldilocks.

Pricing is very close for both bikes. I do like with Giant there’s another option. I can spend 900$ more and get their better carbon frame, carbon handlebars and stem, and still mechanical components which I prefer. With Felt, the next step is much more than 4000$ but 5200$…with that said Giant is still made in Taiwan. Is the frame and fork for F2 and F3 the same?

Components on both are pretty much the same. I have a lot of love for 3T, and everything else seems to be spec Ultegra. The Giant wheels I would expect to be lighter and better quality than Shimano RS11. I like using power2max power meters, but I believe stages would be much easier and a little more affordable to attach.

I haven’t looked at warranty or crash replacement, where does Felt stand?

edit:

One last thing. I remember reading about Felt’s bottom brackets being a little different. Something about not being hollow but having cross layers or something, I don’t quite remember. Can you talk about this? I know Giant is BB86 and Felt is BB30. But what how does that difference translate?

Velo tested both the TCR Advanced SL http://www.giant-bicycles.com/_upload/documents/veloapr_biketest_Lo.pdf and Felt F1 (2013) https://www.facebook.com/wheellifecyclery/photos/a.495419823865408.1073741836.107477662659628/495419913865399/?type=3&theater

I’m now curious how 2015 Felt F3 compares to 2013 Felt F1.

Thank you!!!