I want to optimize my TT position and need your windtunnel eye’s
Could you please give feedback on my position?
Setup used:
Cervelo P2 51cm
No spacers, low FSA topcap (1cm), 9 cm - 17 degrees stem.
FSA vision basebar + extensions. Pads with 12.5mm spacer, smallest position.
Fizik Arione Tri saddle, saddlepoint 5mm behind BB (will update to Adamo saddle to get an UCI approved position)
175mm cranks
LG Rocket helmet size M (picture 5 with Giro Advantage II size M)
Armpad height 84.5 cm from ground
Saddle height 103.5 cm from the ground (saddle = horizontal)
Drop 19 cm
My length is 180 cm.
I am a little bit too stretch out but I already touch my triceps with my knees during training (see also picture 5)
Some people said that my saddle position is allright but I have the feeling it’s a little bit too high. The knee angle is 142 degrees.
That looks pretty darn good, esp for a UCI legal one! The only thing I would change is that you are running 175cm cranks on a 51cm bike with a good, aggressive position. The 5mm you could get from 170mm cranks would be nice for you to have.
Wait a minute. You’re using a Fizik Arione (one of the longest saddles they sell) in the front hole of the seatpost on a 51cm P2 and you’re telling me the nose of the saddle is 5cms behind the center of the bottom bracket? That’s not adding up. I have a whole lot of experience with a 51cm P3C and trying to set it up to be UCI legal for racing nationals and … no way.
But that aside, my first thought on seeing you is that you need to get the saddle back in the rear hole just to distribute your weight more properly on the bike. You’re so far out over the front of the bike and it’s not necessary. Get the saddle back and put a spacer or two beneath your stem. Hopefully, this will create a nice line from your shoulders, through your elbows and straight down the fork to the front hub. You may feel like you want to choke up on the bars some and, if so, you could ultimately shorten them a bit.
More than anything, you need to learn the shrug. Practice making your chin go towards your hands. It’ll keep your face up, but bring the tail of your helmet down onto your back. And the LG is a better helmet for you based on what I’m seeing in those photos.
Good start, though. I think your saddle height looks about right. Revisit if you move the saddle to the rear hole.
My cranks are on the longish side for someone who rides a 51cm bike and I ride 172.5 cranks. 175 does seem kinda long. The issue is really just your legs hitting your torso. If you can live with it and you don’t think your hips are too closed up to generate power, then maybe it’s OK.
Wait a minute. You’re using a Fizik Arione (one of the longest saddles they sell) in the front hole of the seatpost on a 51cm P2 and you’re telling me the nose of the saddle is 5cms behind the center of the bottom bracket? That’s not adding up. I have a whole lot of experience with a 51cm P3C and trying to set it up to be UCI legal for racing nationals and … no way.
I am 0.5cm behind the BB with a Fizik Arione. In the first post I said “saddle point 5mm behind BB (will update to Adamo saddle to get an UCI approved position)”.
But that aside, my first thought on seeing you is that you need to get the saddle back in the rear hole just to distribute your weight more properly on the bike. You’re so far out over the front of the bike and it’s not necessary. Get the saddle back and put a spacer or two beneath your stem. Hopefully, this will create a nice line from your shoulders, through your elbows and straight down the fork to the front hub. You may feel like you want to choke up on the bars some and, if so, you could ultimately shorten them a bit.
More than anything, you need to learn the shrug. Practice making your chin go towards your hands. It’ll keep your face up, but bring the tail of your helmet down onto your back. And the LG is a better helmet for you based on what I’m seeing in those photos.
Good start, though. I think your saddle height looks about right. Revisit if you move the saddle to the rear hole.
My cranks are on the longish side for someone who rides a 51cm bike and I ride 172.5 cranks. 175 does seem kinda long. The issue is really just your legs hitting your torso. If you can live with it and you don’t think your hips are too closed up to generate power, then maybe it’s OK.
.
The reason why I am sitting that forward is that my knee hits my triceps when I move rearward. When I move my saddle from 0.5cm to 3.5cm behind the BB I also have to use a very short stem (6cm). Isn’t that too short?
Thanks for the shrug tip. Is it the same as turteling?
I have 175mm cranks on my road bike, a 56cm soloist. That was the reason to go for the 175mm version. If there is an option to try shorter cranks: i will try them.
In Reply ToDo you feel powerful riding that low? If so, than good. If not, you could afford raising the bars a bit.
It’s a new bike and a new setup for me. Last year I used a road bike for timetrials so I am new to the real timetrial position. But it looks likes I am very close to the power on my road bike. I could do a 10min @ 342w on my TT bike in training when I did it allmost all out. On my road bike I did this month 336w for 20 minutes but that was all out. So difficult to compare for me, it’s all very new for me. But I think my power is within 5% of my road setup.
frame is too small for you.
I disagree. Then I have to use a stem that is 1.3 cm shorter to get to the same position which is already long according to psycholist his post. When I move rearward and adjust for the 1.3cm I need a stem smaller than 6cm for a 54 P2.
Why do you say this? Seriously curious. He looks to be a in a pretty good ST approved position to me. His position is pretty similar to mine though so I’m watching this thread. Pretty big drop and flat back. Legs up to the torso and hitting the back of the arms. I’ve been told I have long legs/short torso, so maybe he is built similarly. We are also about the same height and I’m on a 52cm QR Kilo. Anything bigger and I was way way way stretched out.
First, I wouldn’t be telling you to go to the rear hole on the seatpost if you were doing triathlon. Just for the record, there.
I don’t understand how moving the saddle back can make you more likely to hit your knees into your triceps. That’s odd. Anyway, with regard to the stem, I wouldn’t change it. What I’d do is let your arms come back. The armrests don’t need to be right under your elbows like they are. It’s OK (and maybe even preferable) to have the rests a bit farther forward. This is also why I commented that you may ultimately want to shorten your bars … because I’m expecting that, by going to the rear hole, you’re going to bring your body backwards including your elbows and hands. Again. I wouldn’t recommend shortening the stem. I’d just recommend choking up on the bars and, if you end up liking that position, ultimately cutting the bars down to bring the shifters back to your new hand position.
Just my 2 cents.
But as rroof said initially … it’s a good position. I’m not rippin’ on ya. Just recommending some things you might want to try.
As for the shrug vs. turtle thing. What I don’t like about what I see when people do their “shrug” or their “turtle” or whatever they do is that they start looking down. Then a couple of things happen. First, they become unsafe. You need to be able to see where you’re going. Second, the tail of the helmet starts to come up. If you focus on trying to jut your chin to your hands, your face stays up and you can still see. (You’re still looking out of the top of your eyes and you probably still need frameless glasses or a helmet visor … but at least you can see farther than other shrugging/turtling techniques allow.) But also, the tail of your helmet comes down and rests against your back which is precisely what you want.
First, I wouldn’t be telling you to go to the rear hole on the seatpost if you were doing triathlon. Just for the record, there.
I don’t understand how moving the saddle back can make you more likely to hit your knees into your triceps. That’s odd. Anyway, with regard to the stem, I wouldn’t change it. What I’d do is let your arms come back. The armrests don’t need to be right under your elbows like they are. It’s OK (and maybe even preferable) to have the rests a bit farther forward. This is also why I commented that you may ultimately want to shorten your bars … because I’m expecting that, by going to the rear hole, you’re going to bring your body backwards including your elbows and hands. Again. I wouldn’t recommend shortening the stem. I’d just recommend choking up on the bars and, if you end up liking that position, ultimately cutting the bars down to bring the shifters back to your new hand position.
Just my 2 cents.
But as rroof said initially … it’s a good position. I’m not rippin’ on ya. Just recommending some things you might want to try.
As for the shrug vs. turtle thing. What I don’t like about what I see when people do their “shrug” or their “turtle” or whatever they do is that they start looking down. Then a couple of things happen. First, they become unsafe. You need to be able to see where you’re going. Second, the tail of the helmet starts to come up. If you focus on trying to jut your chin to your hands, your face stays up and you can still see. (You’re still looking out of the top of your eyes and you probably still need frameless glasses or a helmet visor … but at least you can see farther than other shrugging/turtling techniques allow.) But also, the tail of your helmet comes down and rests against your back which is precisely what you want.
Bob
Thanks for the comments Bob! I don’t do triathlon Mostly short TTs (10-20km). I will try to move my saddle a little bit back without changing my cockpit. The reason that I have my pads right under my elbows is that I than have my elbows close to each other. Moving my elbows backwards will also make them a little wider.
You look to me like you probably have longer legs and a shorter torso. A TT/Tri bike should be sized based on the top tube or reach and, given the shorter torso dimensions, I think a smaller frame is appropriate for you. I don’t agree that the frame you’re on is too small. It looks pretty good to me relative to your body dimensions as I eyeball them.
not a problem. i say this based on combined data: knowing the rider’s height (5’11’'), the enormous amount of seatpost out of the frame, the enormous amount of drop (a huge drop relative to the reach, this is key; absolute drop is meaningless, relative drop is what is critical), and the degree that the rider is bent over (too bent over). my bet would be that if the rider had a little less drop, and a little less torso bend, yes, he would lose a few watts due to increased drag, but he would gain a lot of watts due to better power output. so a net gain of speed.
not sure what distances you are racing, and not to say ms. wellington does everything “right” (however you define that), consistent race results say that she likely does the big things right, note her position:
I think I agree with GregX here (on these points):
Shorter cranks (on BOTH bikes).
Frame might be on small side. Don’t worry about stem length. What matters is the elbow pad location in relation to the steerer tube. I’m using a 50mm stem on my P2K right now. It’s stable as a rock (I did 2 TTs last weekend in winds with gusts up to 25-30mph with a Jet90 on the front…no problems handling-wise). Also, a larger frame (with a larger front-center) is going to be more stable despite using a shorter stem. If you’re riding a 56 Soloist as your road bike, then either that’s too big of a frame for you, or this frame is too small. Also, if you go to shorter cranks on this frame, your seatpost is going to be even FURTHER out of the frame than it is…not good.
Other comments:
IMHO, you don’t look “too stretched”, especially for shorter TTs you describe.You don’t look “too low” in front (despite what GregX says
You CAN drop your head a bit (i.e. “shrug”) and still see up the road safely…
not sure what distances you are racing, and not to say ms. wellington does everything “right” (however you define that), consistent race results say that she likely does the big things right, note her position:
Oh man…you know, Ms. W. DOES have a GREAT motor…but man, there are just SO many things about that picture you posted that just make me “cringe”…ouch.
i hear you, but she has “earned the right” to make us cringe. :^)
actually, i think she could afford to have her back lower and flatter (then she’d kick the ass of even more of the male pros), but honestly not as low as p.VDB.
i hear you, but she has “earned the right” to make us cringe. :^)
actually, i think she could afford to have her flatter (then she’d kick the ass of even more of the male pros), but honestly not as low as p.VDB.
just my 2 cents.
See…that’s the thing…SHE’s doing IM distance tris while p.VDB is doing MUCH shorter 10-20K TTs. I have no problem with her position being a bit more “upright” due to the nature of her races vs. p.VDB’s. For me though, the stuff that makes me “cringe” is all the other things…with arm angle being the biggest “problem”.
