I’m in the middle of a 70.3 program and it’s going well, but I seem to really struggle sometimes with fatigue when I’m swimming. It’s normally when I’ve had a hard/long run the day before, then my swimming goes to shit. I can move days around, but not always. I’m in OK swim shape so that’s not the issue. We are doing up to 5km a session. The other week we had 5 x 300m (in a 50m pool) as part of a main set on a 4.45 time cycle and I was coming in around 4.15, so 1.25min/100m pace and that felt OK. Yesterday we had 4 x 400s and that was on a 6.40 time cycle, the first one I came in 6min (1.30 pace) and then they just got slower, the last being 6.45. I pretty much stopped and let everyone overtake me and had to stop doing tumble turns as I was so cooked.
I’m eating/sleeping/hydrating OK. I’ve started taking gels for the longer 5km sessions (hasn’t helped). Is there much I can do to avoid or reduce the amount of fatigue I’m carrying in to my swims? The runs tend to be quite hard on this program, a lot at or near race pace. e.g sunday’s long run (1.45) included 4 x 11min at race pace with 2.5 recovery.
You are far better swimmer than me, so I’ll let other people answer, but I’ve read Josh Amberger and other swimmers say that whenever they feel thrashed they like to wear their buoyancy shorts to help with body position and make the swims better quality.
You are far better swimmer than me, so I’ll let other people answer, but I’ve read Josh Amberger and other swimmers say that whenever they feel thrashed they like to wear their buoyancy shorts to help with body position and make the swims better quality.
yeah they would help, but they are pretty much banned in my squad!
You are far better swimmer than me, so I’ll let other people answer, but I’ve read Josh Amberger and other swimmers say that whenever they feel thrashed they like to wear their buoyancy shorts to help with body position and make the swims better quality.
yeah they would help, but they are pretty much banned in my squad!
Bummer. I swim solo and I love the shorts. I love them a bit too much I would say, this winter I want to stop using them as they were becoming a crutch for me, but I like the fact that I can still have quality swims even when I’m tired.
Without them, not being a swimmer, I’m just dragging my legs across the pool and it makes them swims too hard.
The swim is the first to register the overall fatigue you are generating from your training. It sounds like you are doing more than you can adapt to on the bike and run and you see it in the swim. What you are experiencing is common in triathlon and the main reason athletes have such a tough time improving in the swim.
I hope this helps,
Tim
The buoyancy shorts are horrible. They create significant issues in the stroke.
I think you know that running hurts swimming which is in your post above but a couple of other suggestions may help:
make sure youre fueling right after a hard run (or within the 30 mins) and get enough protein and carbs after training
put on the paddles and pull buoy if youre too tired and can’t work your core normally. At least a good way to push it in the pool if you’re too tired to keep the kick and core going. But obviously preferrable not to do that and just decrease fatigue
shorten and go for quality on your swims - may be hard if you’re swimming in a group and hitting 5k a session. But you can still gain in the strkoe if you shorten the swims a bit and go hard after it (25s, 50 and 100s). Not sure there is much point you shitting the bed and only being able to hold 130s over a 400 when you’re faster than that
build in a bit more recovery - take a day off each week (if you’re not already doing it) or a few days off every 4-5 weeks
get blood tests to check youre not overtraining or some other health issue grinding you. Things like iron and ferritin, testo and estrogen, hemoglob and hematocrit, white cells, b12
How much do the shorts help per 100m would you say? I’ve never worn anything more than basic jammers, wondering if there’s a big difference.
A huge difference, but as SnappingT says, they create issues with your stroke. I wore them for over a year as I was recovering from a shoulder injury. I went from low 1.20smin/100m to 1.14-1.16mins/100m. I then switched to a 25m pool and was doing the 100s on 1.12ish. After I recovered, I ditched the core pants and despite being swim fit was around 8s per 100m slower than before I used them. So went from low 1.20s to around 1.30 pace. I had pretty much stopped kicking, I wasn’t rotating much, my stroke rate was way too slow etc etc lots of issues. So I’d recommend if you’re going to use them, do so sparingly. Mine went in the bin.
I think you know that running hurts swimming which is in your post above but a couple of other suggestions may help:
make sure youre fueling right after a hard run (or within the 30 mins) and get enough protein and carbs after training
put on the paddles and pull buoy if youre too tired and can’t work your core normally. At least a good way to push it in the pool if you’re too tired to keep the kick and core going. But obviously preferrable not to do that and just decrease fatigue
shorten and go for quality on your swims - may be hard if you’re swimming in a group and hitting 5k a session. But you can still gain in the strkoe if you shorten the swims a bit and go hard after it (25s, 50 and 100s). Not sure there is much point you shitting the bed and only being able to hold 130s over a 400 when you’re faster than that
build in a bit more recovery - take a day off each week (if you’re not already doing it) or a few days off every 4-5 weeks
get blood tests to check youre not overtraining or some other health issue grinding you. Things like iron and ferritin, testo and estrogen, hemoglob and hematocrit, white cells, b12
There’s not heaps of running on this program, but quite intense. I definitely don’t fuel straight after a run, so thats something to work on. And yeah you’re right - not much point struggling to hold an ok pace, next time I’ll maybe see if the coach will let me use the PB/paddles to help get me through it.
I swim usually swim 3,000 meters about 4 times a week, I would definitely feel fatigued towards the end of a 5,000 meter workout. If you are doing repeats try to not go all out on the 1st one?
next time I’ll maybe see if the coach will let me use the PB/paddles to help get me through it. //
It sounds to me like you need to start taking more responsibility for your training. No one knows how you feel better than you do, and sometimes you have to tell the coach what you can and cannot do. Mindlessly following any workout without some personal input, well just leads to Lionel!!! (-;
And dont ask the coach if you can use your paddles and buoy, just tell him what you need to do. Personally I would just skip out on some of the repeats, so it doesn’t interfere with the others in the lane, and you can hold form buy getting a lot more rest. Maybe even do both, skip some swims, and pull them too. It is a way to punch your way out of the corner so to speak, and not just get pummeled more and more, going deeper into the hole. If your coach is any good, they will understand what you are trying to do, and should support it…
next time I’ll maybe see if the coach will let me use the PB/paddles to help get me through it. //
It sounds to me like you need to start taking more responsibility for your training. No one knows how you feel better than you do, and sometimes you have to tell the coach what you can and cannot do. Mindlessly following any workout without some personal input, well just leads to Lionel!!! (-;
And dont ask the coach if you can use your paddles and buoy, just tell him what you need to do. Personally I would just skip out on some of the repeats, so it doesn’t interfere with the others in the lane, and you can hold form buy getting a lot more rest. Maybe even do both, skip some swims, and pull them too. It is a way to punch your way out of the corner so to speak, and not just get pummeled more and more, going deeper into the hole. If your coach is any good, they will understand what you are trying to do, and should support it…
Yeah think you’re right. I wanted to do all the 400s, but I guess 3 x 400 quality would be better than 4 x 400 average.
There was some interesting research from Scandinavia outlined in Outside Online recently: https://www.outsideonline.com/health/training-performance/carbs-recovery-research-2022/ . Athletes did some long and some sprint workouts, and muscle biopsies were taken to measure glycogen levels. Essentially, low glycogen levels were not like a car half full of fuel. When depleted, different muscle fibres had lower glycogen levels than others, and within muscle fibres there were differing levels of glycogen. I suspect this is what you are finding with your swimming, and the million dollar question is how much can you train your body to overcome this? There seems to be a grey area of understanding between fully fuelled and totally drained states.
Also, as others have suggested in this thread, you might be better to take a significant drop off in pace in a series of long reps as a sign to back off, not double down and try to complete the set.
You might be doing too much overall load for your body to handle. What do your other run and bike sessions during the week look like? It sounds to me like you need to reduce the load/intensity somewhere in your plan. What plan are you following?
I pretty much stopped and let everyone overtake me and had to stop doing tumble turns as I was so cooked.
If you’re too tired to flip turn, I think your overall training load is too high.
Sometimes I think the mental effort of 3 sports makes it hard to get good workouts because your brain is just tired from pushing. That’s also a good reason to cut back a bit, if telling yourself to “stop swimming so slowly” (which is how I got a good workout this morning after 3 slow days in the pool - but I’m doing nowhere near your volume). But you sound both physically and mentally fatigued.
I’m in the middle of a 70.3 program and it’s going well, but I seem to really struggle sometimes with fatigue when I’m swimming. It’s normally when I’ve had a hard/long run the day before, then my swimming goes to shit. I can move days around, but not always. I’m in OK swim shape so that’s not the issue. We are doing up to 5km a session. The other week we had 5 x 300m (in a 50m pool) as part of a main set on a 4.45 time cycle and I was coming in around 4.15, so 1.25min/100m pace and that felt OK. Yesterday we had 4 x 400s and that was on a 6.40 time cycle, the first one I came in 6min (1.30 pace) and then they just got slower, the last being 6.45. I pretty much stopped and let everyone overtake me and had to stop doing tumble turns as I was so cooked.
I’m eating/sleeping/hydrating OK. I’ve started taking gels for the longer 5km sessions (hasn’t helped). Is there much I can do to avoid or reduce the amount of fatigue I’m carrying in to my swims? The runs tend to be quite hard on this program, a lot at or near race pace. e.g sunday’s long run (1.45) included 4 x 11min at race pace with 2.5 recovery.
I’ve often thought about starting a thread on this same topic, so I’m glad you did. I’m a slower swimmer than you, but experience the same thing. As I get deeper into training, my swimming declines noticeably. In the early stages of training as I round into shape, I’ll swim in the low 130s/ 100. At the end of a training block, it will be about 8-10 secs slower per 100. I might start out just a couple of seconds slower, but sometimes by the end of a workout I’ve gone off a cliff. What’s worse is that I feel like trash and it’s really not a lot of fun. I bounce back okay when I taper for a race or after a cut-back week, which is usually every fourth week in my training, but the other weeks can have some very unpleasant swims.
The cause is obvious-- my training on the bike and run is zapping my legs and other muscles. I’ve never really been sure what to do though. Given that the bike and run legs are more important, I’m loath to cut back there. Plus, neither my run nor bike suffer as big a drop-off when fatigue builds. As long as I’m hitting those workouts I don’t see the need to lower volume or intensity. At the same time, I don’t want to spend less time in the pool because already I don’t swim all that much-- just three times/ 9k per week in preparation for a 70.3. So basically, I just accept that a lot of my swim sessions will be a slow slog, which I’m not sure is the correct approach.
Given that the bike and run legs are more important, I’m loath to cut back there.
As SnappingT said above, this mentality is why so many triathletes fail to make significant improvements in their swimming. Why are they more important? Because they’re longer? If you’re getting out of the water thrashed in a race, you’re not going to bike and run any better. Why not swim faster/same on less energy?