Fastest tire, puncture resistance? what should we ACTUALLY be using?

Triathlon Forum
1

Ok here is what we know so far:
-lots of tires have very different rolling resistances, and no, you cant guess them ahead of time by looking at them
-the huge database of tire rolling resistances is here:

with an addendum here:

First thing t note-
-the difference between very common clinchers (michelin pro 3) and the “fastest clinchers tested” (vittoria ultaspeed clinchers) is almost 20% rolling resistance
-a 20% reduction in CRR, by my math, equals (for me, about a 2:25 half iron bike), about 3 minutes on a half iron leg. This is not to be ignored.

a few questions:
a) almost all the utlrafast tires are very light puncture prone things- ok for a 1 hour TT, but do you want to use them on a 5 hour IM bike you ahve spent 3 months training for?
b) are there ANY fast tires that are puncture resistant? I had HUGE puncture problems with the Michelin PR2s, so far less problems with the PR3s.
c) cant we reproduce the Bontrager “aero TT tires” using glue to fill in the gap, but then use a tire that is actually faster than the base bontrager tire?
d) does anyone know which tire the “specialized mondo” listed in the addendum is? is that actually teh clincher or the tubular?

Thanks, clyde

2

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1829433#1829433
.

3

I am also a Cdale, and ride a custom set of 808 with a PT sl laced in. I have been using the Tufo S3lites since 2005 and have not had a single puncture(edit: I have had several punctures, but they sealed right up and I only lost about 10psi, which dropped total psi down to about 150) on these tires. Of note, I rode these same wheels/tires during all of my training miles outdoors, and indoors on the trainer (kurt kinetic) so I could log my training in WKO+. I swap on a fresh set of tires before each big race, and then train on them until they wear out. I also pre-treat the tires with a few ozs. of Tufo tire sealant and then keep a bottle of vittoria pit stop in my kit. Thus far I have had ZERO flats. I"ve pulled some staples out of the tire after riding, which sealed within 2 seconds (spin the wheel so the puncture is on the low side before removing any debris, it seems to seal quicker), but the roads in San Diego are usually pretty decent. I think this tire is one of the best for a Clyde, you can run them anywhere you like, I train on them at around 160psi, and race them higher, but it depends on the course and conditions.

I have a set of the GP4000S’s also, use them for training when Im not logging wattage, seem to have the same durability as the Tufo’s so far, but will probably outwear a Tufo significantly as the miles pile up.

4

Ok here is what we know so far:
-lots of tires have very different rolling resistances, and no, you cant guess them ahead of time by looking at them
-the huge database of tire rolling resistances is here:

http://www.biketechreview.com/...ire_testing_rev8.pdf] with an addendum here: http://biketechreview.com/...c.php?f=1&t=2475]

First thing t note-
-the difference between very common clinchers (michelin pro 3) and the “fastest clinchers tested” (vittoria ultaspeed clinchers) is almost 20% rolling resistance
-a 20% reduction in CRR, by my math, equals (for me, about a 2:25 half iron bike), about 3 minutes on a half iron leg. This is not to be ignored.

a few questions:
a) almost all the utlrafast tires are very light puncture prone things- ok for a 1 hour TT, but do you want to use them on a 5 hour IM bike you ahve spent 3 months training for?
b) are there ANY fast tires that are puncture resistant? I had HUGE puncture problems with the Michelin PR2s, so far less problems with the PR3s.
c) cant we reproduce the Bontrager “aero TT tires” using glue to fill in the gap, but then use a tire that is actually faster than the base bontrager tire?
d) does anyone know which tire the “specialized mondo” listed in the addendum is? is that actually teh clincher or the tubular?

Thanks, clyde

The Specialized tire listed in Al’s addendum is a tire I sent him to test. It’s the S-Works Mondo Open Tubular…and it now occupies the spot as “fastest clincher tested” for the list.

That tire is a virtual “twin” of both the Bontrager RXLPro23 tire and the Vittoria Open Corsa KS tire…with the exception that the Bonty and Specialized appear to have slightly narrower tread width, and the speculation is that is at least partly why they roll better than the Vittorias, even though all 3 use the exact same 290 TPI casing.

I’ve actually been using one of those tires as a “training tire” on the rear of my road bike for the last 2-3 months or so…without a single flat (knock on wood). It seems to be wearing fairly well and is much less cut prone than the Vittoria CX model’s tread.

Me likey :slight_smile:

It would definitely be durable enough IMHO for a tri leg…besides, as long as you can change a tube in ~3 minutes, you’d be no worse off than using more puncture resistant tires even if you had a flat!

Just my 2 centavos :wink:

5

I am also a Cdale, and ride a custom set of 808 with a PT sl laced in. I have been using the Tufo S3lites since 2005 and have not had a single puncture on these tires. Of note, I rode these same wheels/tires during all of my training miles outdoors, and indoors on the trainer (kurt kinetic) so I could log my training in WKO+. I swap on a fresh set of tires before each big race, and then train on them until they wear out. I also pre-treat the tires with a few ozs. of Tufo tire sealant and then keep a bottle of vittoria pit stop in my kit. Thus far I have had ZERO flats. I"ve pulled some staples out of the tire after riding, which sealed within 2 seconds (spin the wheel so the puncture is on the low side before removing any debris, it seems to seal quicker), but the roads in San Diego are usually pretty decent. I think this tire is one of the best for a Clyde, you can run them anywhere you like, I train on them at around 160psi, and race them higher, but it depends on the course and conditions.

I have a set of the GP4000S’s also, use them for training when Im not logging wattage, seem to have the same durability as the Tufo’s so far, but will probably outwear a Tufo significantly as the miles pile up.

Ummm…do you realize that you actually train on faster tires than your “race” tires?

6

Pardon the stupid question- but what is the difference between an “open tubular” and a normal clincher? Do they both fit on clincher wheels?

7

Pardon the stupid question- but what is the difference between an “open tubular” and a normal clincher? Do they both fit on clincher wheels?

Yes…they both fit on clincher rims. “Open tubular” is just a fancy-pants name for a clincher tire that’s made “like a tubular”…but instead of sewing the ends of the casings together with a tube inside, the fold the casing over a bead material.

8

Also- where did you buy them? they dont seem to be very easy to find…

9

Also- where did you buy them? they dont seem to be very easy to find…

I had my LBS order them from Specialized. Same was true for both the Bonty tires and the Specialized tires.

10

I am also a Cdale, and ride a custom set of 808 with a PT sl laced in. I have been using the Tufo S3lites since 2005 and have not had a single puncture on these tires. Of note, I rode these same wheels/tires during all of my training miles outdoors, and indoors on the trainer (kurt kinetic) so I could log my training in WKO+. I swap on a fresh set of tires before each big race, and then train on them until they wear out. I also pre-treat the tires with a few ozs. of Tufo tire sealant and then keep a bottle of vittoria pit stop in my kit. Thus far I have had ZERO flats. I"ve pulled some staples out of the tire after riding, which sealed within 2 seconds (spin the wheel so the puncture is on the low side before removing any debris, it seems to seal quicker), but the roads in San Diego are usually pretty decent. I think this tire is one of the best for a Clyde, you can run them anywhere you like, I train on them at around 160psi, and race them higher, but it depends on the course and conditions.

I have a set of the GP4000S’s also, use them for training when Im not logging wattage, seem to have the same durability as the Tufo’s so far, but will probably outwear a Tufo significantly as the miles pile up.

Ummm…do you realize that you actually train on faster tires than your “race” tires?
I’ve read the different reports that show up from time to time, and I try different tires on different occasions. At 200psi on dry smooth asphalt, the TUFO feels good and handles well; and that is confidence inspiring. The GP wont reach those pressures and has a very different feel. Ultimately confidence in your equipment has been shown to improve an athletes performance so perhaps the equation balances itself out?

11

I am also a Cdale, and ride a custom set of 808 with a PT sl laced in. I have been using the Tufo S3lites since 2005 and have not had a single puncture on these tires. Of note, I rode these same wheels/tires during all of my training miles outdoors, and indoors on the trainer (kurt kinetic) so I could log my training in WKO+. I swap on a fresh set of tires before each big race, and then train on them until they wear out. I also pre-treat the tires with a few ozs. of Tufo tire sealant and then keep a bottle of vittoria pit stop in my kit. Thus far I have had ZERO flats. I"ve pulled some staples out of the tire after riding, which sealed within 2 seconds (spin the wheel so the puncture is on the low side before removing any debris, it seems to seal quicker), but the roads in San Diego are usually pretty decent. I think this tire is one of the best for a Clyde, you can run them anywhere you like, I train on them at around 160psi, and race them higher, but it depends on the course and conditions.

I have a set of the GP4000S’s also, use them for training when Im not logging wattage, seem to have the same durability as the Tufo’s so far, but will probably outwear a Tufo significantly as the miles pile up.

Ummm…do you realize that you actually train on faster tires than your “race” tires?
I’ve read the different reports that show up from time to time, and I try different tires on different occasions. At 200psi on dry smooth asphalt, the TUFO feels good and handles well; and that is confidence inspiring. The GP wont reach those pressures and has a very different feel. Ultimately confidence in your equipment has been shown to improve an athletes performance so perhaps the equation balances itself out?

Sorry…although it might “feel” fast…putting 200 psi in the Tufo is just going to make it even SLOWER unless you happen to be racing on billiard ball smooth surfaces.

So, great…your “confidence” allows you to physically put out more power than you would otherwise…but then you squander it (and then some) by having to work against a higher load. Doesn’t seem to make a whole lot of sense to me…

12

maybe you can trick yourself into being confident in the stuff that is actually quicker for a double whammy?

I am also a Cdale, and ride a custom set of 808 with a PT sl laced in. I have been using the Tufo S3lites since 2005 and have not had a single puncture on these tires. Of note, I rode these same wheels/tires during all of my training miles outdoors, and indoors on the trainer (kurt kinetic) so I could log my training in WKO+. I swap on a fresh set of tires before each big race, and then train on them until they wear out. I also pre-treat the tires with a few ozs. of Tufo tire sealant and then keep a bottle of vittoria pit stop in my kit. Thus far I have had ZERO flats. I"ve pulled some staples out of the tire after riding, which sealed within 2 seconds (spin the wheel so the puncture is on the low side before removing any debris, it seems to seal quicker), but the roads in San Diego are usually pretty decent. I think this tire is one of the best for a Clyde, you can run them anywhere you like, I train on them at around 160psi, and race them higher, but it depends on the course and conditions.

I have a set of the GP4000S’s also, use them for training when Im not logging wattage, seem to have the same durability as the Tufo’s so far, but will probably outwear a Tufo significantly as the miles pile up.

Ummm…do you realize that you actually train on faster tires than your “race” tires?
I’ve read the different reports that show up from time to time, and I try different tires on different occasions. At 200psi on dry smooth asphalt, the TUFO feels good and handles well; and that is confidence inspiring. The GP wont reach those pressures and has a very different feel. Ultimately confidence in your equipment has been shown to improve an athletes performance so perhaps the equation balances itself out?

13

I am also a Cdale, and ride a custom set of 808 with a PT sl laced in. I have been using the Tufo S3lites since 2005 and have not had a single puncture on these tires. Of note, I rode these same wheels/tires during all of my training miles outdoors, and indoors on the trainer (kurt kinetic) so I could log my training in WKO+. I swap on a fresh set of tires before each big race, and then train on them until they wear out. I also pre-treat the tires with a few ozs. of Tufo tire sealant and then keep a bottle of vittoria pit stop in my kit. Thus far I have had ZERO flats. I"ve pulled some staples out of the tire after riding, which sealed within 2 seconds (spin the wheel so the puncture is on the low side before removing any debris, it seems to seal quicker), but the roads in San Diego are usually pretty decent. I think this tire is one of the best for a Clyde, you can run them anywhere you like, I train on them at around 160psi, and race them higher, but it depends on the course and conditions.

I have a set of the GP4000S’s also, use them for training when Im not logging wattage, seem to have the same durability as the Tufo’s so far, but will probably outwear a Tufo significantly as the miles pile up.

Ummm…do you realize that you actually train on faster tires than your “race” tires?
I’ve read the different reports that show up from time to time, and I try different tires on different occasions. At 200psi on dry smooth asphalt, the TUFO feels good and handles well; and that is confidence inspiring. The GP wont reach those pressures and has a very different feel. Ultimately confidence in your equipment has been shown to improve an athletes performance so perhaps the equation balances itself out?

Yikes! Where do we start with this? Tire selection? PSI? Feels good? All I can come up with is BAD, BAD, BAD, run away, far away and cover my eyes and ears.

Maybe I can say it this way. You’ve selected one of the slowest tires, made it slower by overinflating it and then justified it by the way it feels in total opposition of actual data that supports doing something completely different. Double yikes!

14

do you know if these specialized tyres are for sale yet
if i remember correctly your team is sponsored by specialized
i have searched web and cant find them for sale
cheers
.

15

I am also a Cdale, and ride a custom set of 808 with a PT sl laced in. I have been using the Tufo S3lites since 2005 and have not had a single puncture on these tires. Of note, I rode these same wheels/tires during all of my training miles outdoors, and indoors on the trainer (kurt kinetic) so I could log my training in WKO+. I swap on a fresh set of tires before each big race, and then train on them until they wear out. I also pre-treat the tires with a few ozs. of Tufo tire sealant and then keep a bottle of vittoria pit stop in my kit. Thus far I have had ZERO flats. I"ve pulled some staples out of the tire after riding, which sealed within 2 seconds (spin the wheel so the puncture is on the low side before removing any debris, it seems to seal quicker), but the roads in San Diego are usually pretty decent. I think this tire is one of the best for a Clyde, you can run them anywhere you like, I train on them at around 160psi, and race them higher, but it depends on the course and conditions.

I have a set of the GP4000S’s also, use them for training when Im not logging wattage, seem to have the same durability as the Tufo’s so far, but will probably outwear a Tufo significantly as the miles pile up.

Ummm…do you realize that you actually train on faster tires than your “race” tires?
I’ve read the different reports that show up from time to time, and I try different tires on different occasions. At 200psi on dry smooth asphalt, the TUFO feels good and handles well; and that is confidence inspiring. The GP wont reach those pressures and has a very different feel. Ultimately confidence in your equipment has been shown to improve an athletes performance so perhaps the equation balances itself out?

Yikes! Where do we start with this? Tire selection? PSI? Feels good? All I can come up with is BAD, BAD, BAD, run away, far away and cover my eyes and ears.

Maybe I can say it this way. You’ve selected one of the slowest tires, made it slower by overinflating it and then justified it by the way it feels in total opposition of actual data that supports doing something completely different. Double yikes!
and yet…I’m faster than hell on a bike…go figure!

but more to the point (your point, not mine), can you define overinflation please. While you are at it, please state how inflation to different pressures affects footprint, and then how that footprint (at state pressure) is altered by the weight of the rider. Finally, state how that footprint at state pressure with stated rider weight will create a measured level of friction with the tire at speed. (probably should quote a speed as well).

Here again is someone willing to jump in and state across the board (naively), that because He read it somewhere, that it HAS TO be true all the time, and for everyone. Do you really believe this?

So anyway, please post up the data to answer my questions; and set me straight. Again, here’s what I need you to answer in order to refute what I WROTE.

  1. state the tire pressures in the test,
  2. state the tires load represented as rider weight
  3. state the change in footprint/contact patch for the pressures used, and correlate that with the surface friction created.
  4. state the surface used (just so we know).
  5. state the speed or speeds that these tests were performed at.

thanks,

16

And you would be even faster with less rolling resistance, whats yer point?

how fast are ya anyway?

 and yet.............I'm faster than hell on a bike.............go figure!
17

do you know if these specialized tyres are for sale yet
if i remember correctly your team is sponsored by specialized
i have searched web and cant find them for sale
cheers

Yep…they are for sale. Even though my team has a Specialized sponsorship, I still had to buy them :wink:

18

And you would be even faster with less rolling resistance, whats yer point?

how fast are ya anyway?

 and yet.............I'm faster than hell on a bike.............go figure!
 
 I'm SO Fast..........that you are compelled to reply.
19

but more to the point (your point, not mine), can you define overinflation please. While you are at it, please state how inflation to different pressures affects footprint, and then how that footprint (at state pressure) is altered by the weight of the rider. Finally, state how that footprint at state pressure with stated rider weight will create a measured level of friction with the tire at speed. (probably should quote a speed as well).

Here again is someone willing to jump in and state across the board (naively), that because He read it somewhere, that it HAS TO be true all the time, and for everyone. Do you really believe this?

So anyway, please post up the data to answer my questions; and set me straight. Again, here’s what I need you to answer in order to refute what I WROTE.

  1. state the tire pressures in the test,
  2. state the tires load represented as rider weight
  3. state the change in footprint/contact patch for the pressures used, and correlate that with the surface friction created.
  4. state the surface used (just so we know).
  5. state the speed or speeds that these tests were performed at.

thanks,

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1909561;search_string=pressure%20crr%20vittoria;#1909561

That’s a direct link to the relevant plot…make sure you go back and read the thread from the beginning…

20

Wait, this is weird:
a) he has TONS of data on his side. Yes, with riders of a different weight than you, and yes at different PSI than you ride
b) you have NO data. None whatsoever. You didnt do your own tests, and you not only have no data, you have no reason to say why his data doesnt apply to you- yes you are at different psi, and different size, but why wouldnt the same Crr that exists for the tester not apply to you, scaled somehow?
b2) you post on a thread that links to lots of technical data, and is clearly meant to be a technical conversation, and the best you can come up iwth is “yet i am fast” and “it feels good”?
c) and yet you say HE has to prove his assertions to YOU? that makes no sense.