Because for highly trained endurance athletes additional threshold power gains are minimal for additional sub maximal work. V02 max work, along with intervals of other durations at above threshold efforts are needed to improve threshold and thus endurance performance.
Because for highly trained endurance athletes additional threshold power gains are minimal for additional sub maximal work. V02 max work, along with intervals of other durations at above threshold efforts are needed to improve threshold and thus endurance performance.
That may be true for the pointy end of the field (Pro triathletes and top age groupers) and I am not sure that you can say that conclusively even for that group. For the average age grouper, not so. Most age groupers racing long course don’t need any VO2 max intervals at all and really should not be putting them in their training schedule.
How exactly does one train to increase VO2max without increasing FTP and vice versa.
As an aside VO2 max is the maximal oxygen consumption. Its not really aerobic as you will have some anaerobic processes going on during a max VO2 effort.
I think we are saying the same thing, but might differ where the crossover point is regarding when this type of work is valuable.
I am not a pro, nor a top age grouper, but have seen material increases in endurance pace by doing 5-6 min vo2 max work. But, I fit into the time crunched category so I have plenty of rest between sessions.
coggan’s extensive history of power data and vo2 testing shows that, at least for him, threshold training alone does not get him to his peak vo2 max, which is significantly higher when he does vo2 intervals.
however he also claims that he gets better threshold power doing just threshold work and no vo2 work.
n=1 stuff, but interesting.
this would all just be relevant to biking. vo2 intervals for running could be a whole different story.
How exactly does one train to increase VO2max without increasing FTP and vice versa.
As an aside VO2 max is the maximal oxygen consumption. Its not really aerobic as you will have some anaerobic processes going on during a max VO2 effort.
Right, and I don’t think anybody would dispute that. The question is, if I have an hour, and I am preparing for a long distance triathlon, do I get more from 1 hour of 6x5 min intervals, or 1 hour at zone 3/4?
One is certainly more specific. The optimal answer might be a bit of both, of course. I don’t know.
I find vo2 intervals hard to even do when I am run training at the same time, heh.
I am not a pro, nor a top age grouper, but have seen material increases in endurance pace by doing 5-6 min vo2 max work. But, I fit into the time crunched category so I have plenty of rest between sessions.
How exactly does one train to increase VO2max without increasing FTP and vice versa.
As an aside VO2 max is the maximal oxygen consumption. Its not really aerobic as you will have some anaerobic processes going on during a max VO2 effort.
Yeah, there’s always coupling and overlap in adjacent training systems and not useful to isolate them too much. But FWIW, I’ve seen much better FTP progress in myself and those I’ve coached with a push up approach of mostly SST/L4 work and when we’ve switched to more L5 work we usually see substantial improvements in things like 3 and 5 minute power but not as much FTP progress. So yeah they’re coupled but VO2 Max and FTP don’t tend to move in lockstep with either a push up or pull up approach.
I’d also disagree with your VO2 Max statement. We ALWAYS have an anaerobic component to energy sources even at very low intensity and definitely at FTP. VO2 Max is the limit of aerobic energy system utilization, you cannot produce more power via aerobic pathways than the power you produce aerobically at VO2 Max gas exchange rates. Sure you also produce a fair amount of power via anaerobic glycolysis when you’ve reached VO2 Max O2 utilization but it still represents the upper end of aerobic energy production and sets an athletes current aerobic ceiling. Raising that aerobic ceiling can be important for some very well trained endurance athletes that have taken their FTP as a fraction of p_VO2Max pretty far and are running out of aerobic headroom. But sure, even sub maximal FTP training tends to raise VO2 Max to a point and things like 3 to 5 minute power tend to rise even after extended periods of L2/L3/L4 training without any dedicated L5 work but for someone really topped out on aerobic headroom L5 training can be pretty important for it’s aerobic benefits.
Gains from specific training will eventually peter out. You need to switch it up for a while and then come back. In fact you can go the other way to super easy work as well and then come back to more race specific efforts.
FTP work isn’t really specific to long course either. Granted, more specific than vo2 max intervals, but in long course you will be well lower than ftp on race day.
Gains from specific training will eventually peter out. You need to switch it up for a while and then come back. In fact you can go the other way to super easy work as well and then come back to more race specific efforts.
FTP work isn’t really specific to long course either. Granted, more specific than vo2 max intervals, but in long course you will be well lower than ftp on race day.
I personally need the variety. My mind will go numb otherwise. But I also like doing sprints running, on XC skis and in the pool (well, the pool speed is nothing to write home about, but the effort is a full out sprint).
Also, cycling has almost no technique…the technique is almost identical at IM Pace, FTP or VO2max pace. Whereas in the other sports, when you do V02max intervals applying VO2max power while holding good form requires a lot more mental processing and coordination so there is value there from a technical perspective even for a long course athlete. Your technique/form 9 hours into a long course race will collapse to your worst form when doing high intensity intervals, so there is always value from a technique/form perspective.
Yeah, there’s always coupling and overlap in adjacent training systems and not useful to isolate them too much.
Which was my point.
I’d also disagree with your VO2 Max statement. We ALWAYS have an anaerobic component to energy sources even at very low intensity and definitely at FTP.
I spent much of last season with lots of 2x20’ @ 95-100% type stuff. The work got harder and harder and the FTP test days showed stagnated results (~3.8W/kg; 1 yr with a PM).
Frustrated and heartbroken, I begged Accelerate 3 into taking me on. First thing Desert Dude did was introduce me to >105% stuff.
I spent much of last season with lots of 2x20’ @ 95-100% type stuff. The work got harder and harder and the FTP test days showed stagnated results (~3.8W/kg; 1 yr with a PM).
Frustrated and heartbroken, I begged Accelerate 3 into taking me on. First thing Desert Dude did was introduce me to >105% stuff.
Just so we’re all on the same page, how are we defining VO2max power?
Coggan uses it to refer to the range between 106% and 120% which it pretty broad.
Others refer to that has suprathreshold, where VO2max is only that upper number.
As far as triathletes go, I’ve found that training V02max intervals have been crucial to being able to tackle hills, and make clean passes.
Between 106 and 120% or what? Your VO2 max power would be the power where you just max out on oxygen consumption. Trouble is VO2 max has a precise definition, but VO2max power really doesn’t and VO2 max intervals really, really doesn’t.
As another n=1 example, I’ve been on the VO2 interval path over the last couple weeks. I essentially took mid-October through December off. January was lots of just ride work. In February we started introducing VO2 max intervals (yay!). This last Saturday, on what was supposed to be a 30 minute tempo section, I was feeling good and cranked out a 30 minute best power interval on the trainer for all of my riding history. It was higher than my previous 20 minute best, which was done at sea level while climbing. This was without any kind of threshold work. Granted, it doesn’t mean that threshold wouldn’t have done the same thing, but VO2 intervals seemed to do the trick quite well.
That would make the story better wouldnt it, Jack?
Unfortunately I dont have an apples2apples test.
I can tell you what I got. I spent the summer of ‘12 at 280-282W, but I did the tests (NP of 2x20’ with 2’ rest) in road position.
Brian had me do my first test holding the TT postion as an all out 30’ test. I scored a completely spent, destroyed, and heartbroken 257W AP. This was when he got me, mid-September.
Mid-Jan ‘13, I retested and managed 30’ in the TT at 281 AP.
