I am involved as a participant in a study looking at the potential benefits to skeletal muscle function by ingesting a carbohydrate plus protein drink during cycling.
The test will involve three separate muscle biopsies separated by atleast one week (probably more)
Anyone have any experience with how these impact training?
The research is being done by a friend of mine and it is a topic that I have genuine interest in. I have asked her all sorts of questions and she assures me it will be OK. It’s not like I don’t trust her but I’m looking for opinions of fellow triathletes.
I will have to perform a 20kmTT 24 hours after the biopsy is taken so I’ll assume it’s pretty normal to ride post biopsy, how about running? Apparently it feels like a mild charlie horse, not bad but I’m curious how it has impacted those of you with real world experience.
And yes, this is will be done by a physician in a lab at a well respected university so I’m not concerned for my health…just my training.
Thanks, Ian
You can generally run day of the biopsy, depending on the study design of course. Actually it’s sometimes encouraged to alleviate some of the next day soreness. You’re really not that sore at all, though.
i did a study at app state last february where we had to do muscle biopsies. our test was over a 3 day period and we had to ride for 3 hours on a trainer at a given wattage (i believe it was around 65%) each day. everyday before and after the study we gave blood. on days 1 & 3 they did biopsies (on our quad) both before and after the workout. along with the lactate finger prick every 30 min during the workout i felt like a human pin cushion. honestly, the blood draw was more painful than the biopsy. you’ll feel a pressure in your quad but they should numb you up enough that it won’t bother you. some of the other guys in the study had more of a problem dealing with the pain. 1 year later, the scars are totally unnoticeable unless you really look close and know they are there.
3 hrs 3 days in a row was a good jumpstart for my season. the $$ didn’t hurt either
let me know if you’ve got any other questions about it.
I’ve had 18 biopsies, which took place over 4 different studies. most of the time I was just sore for a day but nothing to write home about. three of the biopsies left me feeling like I couldn’t run and could barely pedal a bike, but after 2 days I was fine.
on a side note I think you should do the study, they’re fun and you learn a lot.
good luck
I was in a study last spring that involved six biopsies (3 per day, one week apart) and it was really no big deal. I hardly felt anything during the procedure, and soreness afterwards wasn’t too bad (especially with physical activity after the biopsy - even just walking).
Personally, I thought the blood draws (6 per day) were more painful than the biopsies.
just do it - it will be a good experience, and science is cool (that’s why I’m a scientist),
I participated in a study involving muscle biopsies last year - one right after riding, one an hour later (using the same incision). Then a few weeks later, the same thing in the other leg. For the most part the biopsies themselves were painless. Except, on one, they hit connective tissue and that was very uncomfortable/painful. Otherwise you just have a sensation of pressure that feels weird, but painless.
I was told that I could work out the next day, and heard stories about the person who ran a half marathon the next day and had a PR. Well, I wouldn’t say it was that easy…I’m thinking the person in that story must have had a really soft PR prior to that race. The first time I had one, which was the one where they hit the connective tissue, there was no way I was working out the next day due to some soreness. I may have done a short, easy, trainer ride, but it’s possible I did nothing. It was sore, which I was told was probably a byproduct of the connective tissue. The second one, I tried to do a run/walk the next day (again, I was cleared to do this by the guy doing the biopsy), and it was still a little sore, but really not too bad. But, the bigger problem I ran into was b/c I was sweating, the bandaid came off and the incision opened up while I was working out, which did not help the healing (and seemed to freak people out on the trail as they saw the blood running down my leg). When I went in for follow-up the next day, they re-cleaned it out and re-bandaged it, and it took longer to heal. If you’re not a heavy sweater, this probably wouldn’t be as much of an issue of happening. Otherwise, since I commute by bike (short, 15-20m commute each way), I had no problem doing that sort of riding in the days post-biopsy for both times.
But, I definitely couldn’t do additional workouts that day (someone above mentioned running that day), partly b/c of soreness, but also because they put a pressure bandage on it to help it heal together, meaning it made it kind of hard to bend my leg properly. For example, I had ridden my bike to the study, but took the bus home and then walked my bike from the bus stop to my house because I just couldn’t get on or pedal with the bandage.
The other thing that I was not told about until after the biopsy was that I couldn’t get it wet for several days. I had no idea I would not be able to swim after - the grad student had told me that I could follow my normal workout schedule no problem. But the professor doing the biopsy said that wasn’t true - no getting it wet. The grad student tried to say I could wear a water proof bandage to swim, but I knew that water would still get in there and didn’t want to risk an infection or delayed healing, and the professor agreed - no swimming for a few days. Since the second biopsy had reopened and now took longer to heal, I ended up having to wait a week before swimming to be on the safe side.
But i would definitely do a study again involving biopsies - they really aren’t bad, and now that I know the deal with getting them wet, I just adjust my workouts accordingly, and the money is definitely good. The other thing for me is I just made a point not to look at the needle-thingie used to do the biopsy. It looks way bigger (to me) than something that should be inserted into an incision in your leg, which I also made a point not to look at. Given the fact that my study involved being fasted, somewhat dehydrated after riding, and some blood draws, and knowing myself, I thought looking at something like that might not make me feel too good.
I have had 9 different biopsies done in my quads…there is no long term effect…day after you will be stiff sore…but just warm up…cycling will not be as bad as running would be…if you had a 5k the next day you might be worried, but I think cycling willl be alright.
It feels like someone punching you in the leg…kinda weird…the numbing shots are the bad part.
Hi Dan’s Army,
long time listener, first time caller. Thought maybe I could chime in with something that might be of value here:
Itseazy, good on you for deciding to sign up, you’re making a contribution to science!! Having been on both ends of the biopsy needle on a number of occasions, I can agree with the others that it’s not a big deal. Bit scary when you see the needle and scalpel, but the anaesthetic injection is the most painful bit. Keep in mind though, it can be as painful as you make it: if you get tense and contract the muscle, it can hurt, make it harder to stick the needle in, and harder for the muscle to get sucked into the needle. All of this means the Doc might ask you if he/she can pretty-please stick the needle back in, which, ideally, you don’t really want. Just think happy thoughts, and RELAX!
The next thing, post-biopsy: in the old days (way before I ever got involved) they used to tell people that they would be fine, and could run, ride, whatever on the same daday, as Sleepy suggested. I don’t quite agree, and most people running these studies will probably tell you the same. Light cycling on the same day, and the day after is usually a good thing, helps relax the muscle a bit, and so on. Running is certainly possible, you will feel only minor discomfort, however is probably to your detriment. It won’t stop bleeding for maybe up to 24hr, and running, or even hard cycling will only promote more bleeding, and increase the duration of the “corked” feeling. If it was me getting you into the lab, I’d say don’t run the day after either, or if necessary keep it to a minimum, but the following day should be fine.
Best of luck with it! Randolph
I’ve had 3. It’s cool to say you’ve had them and cool to have the scars to prove it, but it is the worst, most intense pain I have ever felt. I ran the day following my three on my right qaud and ended up w/ an injury in my left leg due to favoring it so much.
Take the following day off. Be smart. It’ll hurt, but will be fine soon enough.
I don’t know if it helped or not, but I up’d my protien for a few days to try top fill in the ‘hole.’
I’ve had 3. It’s cool to say you’ve had them and cool to have the scars to prove it, but it is the worst, most intense pain I have ever felt. I ran the day following my three on my right qaud and ended up w/ an injury in my left leg due to favoring it so much.
Take the following day off. Be smart. It’ll hurt, but will be fine soon enough.
I don’t know if it helped or not, but I up’d my protien for a few days to try top fill in the ‘hole.’
I used silly putty to try and fill the holes???
uhhhhhhh
I think Jeff Frame used green locktite (gap filler) on his.
Uhhhhhhhhhhhh?
Thanks all, I’m definately going to do the study, just did some baseline Vo2 testing last night and some familiarization trials next week. It’s a friend of mine and it’s a topic I’m interested in so if I need to take a day off running, I’m not too worried. I’m actually more worried about having to collect all urine output 24h post trial. That’s gonna present some logistical problems!!
Cheers, Ian
Quit being a puss about the biopsies! I swam the day after 3 tumors of mine were biopsied, and the only problem was when I scraped the area on the lane rope.
What were your numbers? I did a 20 minute field test on the bike 3 weeks ago, i’ll tell you mine if you tell me yours…
I was 62.
Test included jumping on the Bike Ergometer cold a huge 3 min warmup of :60 at 90 watts, 2min at 120 watts. Then came the ramp protocol where one watt was added every 2 seconds. The test kept going as long as I could keep the cadence over 60rpm. HR on my monitor measured 194 at the top end. I was riding at about 90rpm for the entire test except the last 30 seconds or so when my legs just quit. Legs broke at 535watts.
A question for the exercise phys. experts…I ran twice yesterday (1:35 total) as well as swam for an hour. Would this impact results at all in a test like this.
To be honest I was a little disappointed in the number. I know Vo2 max isn’t the whole picture but I can’t believe all these guys who say they’re in the 70s and 80s. Is there a lot of bullshit going on here or am I severely behind the genetic 8 ball with these guys at the front of the age-group pack?
Oh and as for the worrying about the biopsios, I need all the muscle I have, and yes I am a pussy.
I was 62.
Test included jumping on the Bike Ergometer cold a huge 3 min warmup of :60 at 90 watts, 2min at 120 watts. Then came the ramp protocol where one watt was added every 2 seconds. The test kept going as long as I could keep the cadence over 60rpm. HR on my monitor measured 194 at the top end. I was riding at about 90rpm for the entire test except the last 30 seconds or so when my legs just quit. Legs broke at 535watts.
A question for the exercise phys. experts…I ran twice yesterday (1:35 total) as well as swam for an hour. Would this impact results at all in a test like this.
To be honest I was a little disappointed in the number. I know Vo2 max isn’t the whole picture but I can’t believe all these guys who say they’re in the 70s and 80s. Is there a lot of bullshit going on here or am I severely behind the genetic 8 ball with these guys at the front of the age-group pack?
Oh and as for the worrying about the biopsios, I need all the muscle I have, and yes I am a pussy.
As long as you weren’t so fatigued from your running and swimming that you couldn’t achieve VO2max, it should have had no significant impact on the measured value. (That said, I always tell people to prepare for such tests as if they were a race, as there’s really no point in doing the test if you’re going to stop short due to fatigue.)
535 W is fairly high power for someone whose VO2max is only 62 mL/min/kg, so I assume that you’re bigger than your typical endurance athlete?
6’2, 176. I race at about 170. Only in endurance sport am I considered big!!
I don’t think the previous workouts that day were enough to force me to stop due to fatigue but it would have been nice to have been given the opportunity to spin my legs out for 15-20 minutes before the test started. Don’t know how that would have impacted the results.
I petered out @ 375w w/ a V02 @ 71.
I’m ~133lbs though and hence can’t produce as much power.
@ 535w you can ride circles around me!
Alright Eganski, pony up with those numbers. I need to know what I’m up against in THE SMACKDOWN.
6’2, 176.
Hmm. 176 lbs/2.205 lbs/kg = 79.8 kg * 62 mL/min/kg = 4.95 L/min. Given that absolute value, I’m a bit surprised that you made it to 535 W…either your anaerobic capacity must be rather high, or something’s amiss with the measurements.
I’ve never trained with a power meter so I really can’t comment on the accuracy of the measurements. I do appreciate your insight though so I’d like to figure out if there is some inaccuracy.
I have a 40km TT best of 51:42 from last September on a flat, fast course, not sure what wattage ballpark that would put me in. Does that help make sense of the numbers?
Maybe I should invest in a power meter and actually start to pay attention to these things
Thanks in advance, Ian