I’ve had my element since 2005, and during the summer months I would always get ~25mpg, and in the winter it would drop to ~23mpg. I was convinced that it was related to additives more than temperature, because there would be warm weeks and mileage never improved until we got summer gas.
Anyway, now most stations are 10% ethanol, and since this went into effect, I have consistently gotten 21-22mpg, and never better (this is through a full year, winter and summer). I was not totally convinced, because I did replace tires and that can have an effect.
So now a ethanol free station has opened in the town where I work. Two tanks now and 25mpg from each. I know that donm or someone will say observational bias :), and that I drove more conservatively, but I have had ~50 tanks of ethanol gas and have never achieved 25mpg, and now I’m 2/2 with reg gas.
I would be as well off is they just gave me 9/10 of a gallon, since I lose 10% mileage anyway. I’m guessing that the combustion is off enough that the engine’s efficiency is screwed up…
Have others noticed this? The station owner claims that people are universally claiming 10-20% improvement with ethanol free gas…
Ethanol blends are going to give lower mpg, but usually the blend costs a little less. I guess you’d have to do the math to see if it makes sense in your situation. If using 0% ethanol gives better mileage at the same price, seems like a no-brainer.
You bet! Ethanol is a COMPLETE scam. In Milwaukee, all we can get is ethanol gas. In Green Bay, you can get non-ethonal gas. I travel to Green Bay quite a bit for Packer games and to visit by parents. For the last 3 years, I have tracked my mpg based on where I refuel. It is pretty dramatic. I get far better mpg with the non-ethanol gas.
My previous car was a Mitsu Spyder Eclipse. I had several mods on the car, including a fuel management system. It was fairly common for me to get error readings when I used the ethanol fuel and my mpg would drop dramatically. Likewise, my engine ran hotter with the ethanol. Finally, my fuel management system would give a general reading regarding how clean the fuel was burning. I saw little increase when I used the ethanol.
I’m not sure how much of a difference it makes, but if every gallon in the country was a 10% (or 20%) blend that would mean a lot less oil and the lower price that would result could make up for the milage difference. I’m not sure what % already is at 10%, maybe ethanol is already saving you much more than it’s costing you. I’m sure a google search could help you find an estimate of how much of a difference that makes if you really care.
So if there is 10% ethanol, and I’m getting 10% worse gas mileage, how is that translating into less oil used? Since I am obtaining no benefit, I will use the same amount of gasoline.
There have always been non-ethanol stations here in VT, but they are usually close to boating places, which are out of my way. I guess that there are big problems with ethanol and marine engines… I seem to remember that Gasbuddy.com would list non-ethanol stations, but I couldn’t find it when I just looked. Just in case you haven’t seen it, its amazing how much prices vary in one market http://www.milwaukeegasprices.com/
Yes you will but you’ll feel better about yourself and the soccer moms can feel smug when they fill up their Tahoe’s with “green” gasoline. Did I mention that it takes almost an entire barrel of oil to make a barrel of ethanol.
Ethanol’s original “benefit” was clean air use as an oxygenate. Ethanol was never contemplated as a gasoline substitue prior to rise in crude…the initial use was oxygenate to help gasoline burn cleaner and lower ozone…that was the original plan for ethanol blends.
I don’t have all the answers (unlike many here I will openly admit that) but there are many places to look as far as possibilities. Maybe your vehicle doesn’t work well with 10% ethanol and maybe most others do and only see a minor drop in milage. Maybe the 10-20% claim from the station employee you mentioned is so that you return to his station. Maybe your biased and fudging the numbers. Maybe ethanol doesn’t help any.
You will always get worse milage with ethonal. As pointed out, it does not have the same energy potential per gallon as gasoline (ie it takes more of it to generate the same power). This is supposed to be made up by the fact its cheaper but, its only cheaper because of government subsidies.
Aside from fuel issues, cars will generally get slightly worse milage in the winter because of the changes in the fuel/air mixture the engine control system makes during warm up. It does this in the summer too but you spend less time in this range since the engine warms up faster.
Ethanol in its current form is basically just welfare for corn farmers. It really doesn’t make much sense on any rational level. On that note, I’d love to see figures on the real carbon foot print of driving a car a given distance on ethanol versus gasoline. When you factor in the growing, harvesting and transportation of the corn plus the fact that you have to power a distiller to make teh ethanol, it takes more than one gallon of gas to make a gallon of ethanol.
it still isn’t saving oil or energy though since once you factor in the farm equipment, processing, and transport of the ethanol its a complete waste
plus you are paying for that corn with your tax dollars.
So if there is 10% ethanol, and I’m getting 10% worse gas mileage, how is that translating into less oil used? Since I am obtaining no benefit, I will use the same amount of gasoline.
Maybe your vehicle doesn’t work well with 10% ethanol and maybe most others do and only see a minor drop in milage.
That’s what I believe. As stated above, ethanol has less energy then gasoline, so a drop “should” be seen, but just not as much of a drop. If my engine was designed around ethanol, I think that it would be closer
Maybe the 10-20% claim from the station employee you mentioned is so that you return to his station.
Yeah, but I’m not basing my decision on his statement, just my observations/data
Maybe your biased and fudging the numbers.
It wouldn’t make a lot of sense to do so, but when my mileage initially dropped, I tried everything to get it back to normal, including many “ultra-miler” tricks. My commute is pretty ideal for achieving good mileage. Its ~20mi of single lane highway with no stops and speeds of 50-55. And unless it snows, there is virtually no variability.
I think that a few people put forth the “reasons” behind ethanol, and I guess that I do remember a bit of it, but that memory was largely replaced with the thought of ethanol being a “gasoline alternative”…
Your are correct. It cost more energy to produce 1 gallon of ethanol than you get in return.
Same reason that domestic oil is not attractive now that the price to produce a barrel of oil is more than what the current market price is.
I would love to see stimulus dollars go towards building hydrogen fuel stations across the country since the major obstacle to that energy source is distribution.
Working with a former Shell oil guy and he also explains that many states have different formulas of fuel. Given some may be for altitude adjustments but wouldn’t it make sense to only refine 2 formulas of gas instead of 20?
FYI…should not be a surprise given that 1 gallon of ethanol has 76,000 BTUs compared to mid-grade gasoline of 125,000 BTUs
Actually isn’t this an arguement for not much lower mileage at all?
The OP is claiming 21-22 on 10% and 25 on Reg. That’s a 14% drop. Using your numbers you would expect only a 4% drop (.1 * 76K + .9 *125K)/125K. One would expect to see number around 24 MPG rather than 25 MPG, not 21-22.
~Matt
Edit to add that one would expect to see a 33% drop on E-85(.85* 76K + .15 * 125K)/125K. But using the OP’s number assuming that the ethanol was entire to blame an E-85 vehicle would see something like 119% drop…and it wouldn’t go anywhere
It really is 10% worse (actually, I think that its 12.5% worse). This is using the same station, same pump (so the shutoff is repeatable as possible). I’m now getting 320miles until I hit the empty stripe and the light comes on (requires 12.8gal to fill). With the ethanol gas I was lucky to get 280miles for the same 12.8gal.
With the amount of electronics in a modern engine, you would never hear the knocking, etc, that you heard in old cars to tell you whether your combustion is good. I think that there is a bit of premature ignition, due to the higher octane, and the engine control is trying to correct, resulting in decreased efficiency…
The cause is a theory, the end result has been as repeatable as I think is possible.
The octane is the same not higher, your engine isn’t knocking. If the octane were higher, it would be less likely to pre-ignite, not more likely
Mileage goes down because ethanol has less energy content per volume. The efficiency is actually the same, there is just less energy there.
I believe you have measured 10%, I just don’t believe your metholodgy is accurate enough to distinguish between 4 and 10% reliably. weather, seasonal mixes, driving style etc all change things.
It really is 10% worse (actually, I think that its 12.5% worse). This is using the same station, same pump (so the shutoff is repeatable as possible). I’m now getting 320miles until I hit the empty stripe and the light comes on (requires 12.8gal to fill). With the ethanol gas I was lucky to get 280miles for the same 12.8gal.
With the amount of electronics in a modern engine, you would never hear the knocking, etc, that you heard in old cars to tell you whether your combustion is good. I think that there is a bit of premature ignition, due to the higher octane, and the engine control is trying to correct, resulting in decreased efficiency…
The cause is a theory, the end result has been as repeatable as I think is possible.
From my own experience, I am with you. E85 or any of the other blends are definately lower in mileage. Depending on the pricing differential, it needed to be in the neighborhood of 40-45 cents cheaper for the equivalent because of the lower mileage. Which it wasnt at the time, and I was driving a Suburban then. Yes, the alcohol blends are higher in octane, but that is only part of the combustion story.
