Good thread going on here. First, there is a time and a place for a solid rear disc wheel, triathlons are typically not it.If the course is super flat and fast and you’ll be averaging around 28-30mph then there is an argument for a solid rear disc. However that is assuming the rear disc is question is the absolute best disc wheel on the market. I won’t say which one that is, but you’ll see it when we launch ours someday . The 7.8 was developed specifically for ironman distance triathletes. It performs head a shoulders above the rest in the real world because unlike most deep wheels it wasn’t optimized for 30mph which is standard in most aero testing. Optimizing the wheel for triathlon also means we prioritized stability in dynamic wind conditions over 30 mph aero efficiency. It’s a win for everyone but the world’s best time trialists and even then, the tradeoffs are minimal. We have put numerous time trial specialist on the top step of the podium who rode the 7.8 in a field full of solid rear disc wheels. **Adding a disc cover will negatively impact the wheels efficiency. **You’ll also add weight which regardless of what has been said in the past about weight no mattering much, it’s still a factor. Also, disc cover will hurt stability of the bike/wheel system.
Finally, and I alluded to this earlier. In our testing, the 7.8 out performs virtually all but one disc wheel on the market. That Z brand wheel is fast, but again, it’s for time trialing. We will make a disc wheel, but it’s our hope we only see it used for professional time trialing and the occasional olympic or sprint distance tri on a fast course.
Slowtwitch, what are your thoughts? Myself, I loved my Zipp Super 9 and 808 and I don’t believe ENVE.
Race wheels are 808/Super9… love them. Also love Enve… having owned 3.4, 6.7 and now 2.2 and 4.5. Riden 7.8s (not on my bike) and thought highly of them, would love to have them as well. I train on the 4.5
…and yet Carl from Trek was on here last year saying a disc is always faster by a decent number of watts and that they had tested in CFD, the tunnel, and the field. They even went so far as to test disc covers vs a solid disc and found no difference.
I’ll trust Carl. I hope most of my competitors listen to this guy from Enve.
Partially why I wanted to test a 25mm vs 23mm on the Enve 7 for the aero tire test back in April as they claim a 25mm is faster than a 23mm. The results were not so shocking to me. Like others, you are listening to a marketing guy speak.
Marketing guy: that thing we don’t sell? IT SUCKS! Don’t use the thing we don’t sell.
/marketing guy
Yeah…if Enve was convinced that their 7.8’s were faster than any disc at 27 mph or less, then all they have to do is publish the data that leads them to believe that and their sales should increase.
So either the data doesn’t exist, or they don’t like money.
I wouldn’t buy any Enve wheels. I have seen a couple delaminate less than a year on the bike. While Enve was good about replacing them, I don’t want to take the risk. No thanks.
In my personal decision making, upstream claims and counter offers like the one about disks being slower harms a brand far more than it helps. Now, my view of Enve is immediately downgraded, and I question the credibility of any of their wheel products. If I were making the choice between Enve and Zipp wheels at a similar cost, it would be Zip now; no brainer.
Marketing guy: that thing we don’t sell? IT SUCKS! Don’t use the thing we don’t sell.
/marketing guy
Official title on LinkedIn:
Director Of Marketing And Product Management at ENVE Composites.
NOT:
Engineer
Lots of other things wrong…but that is to be expected with marketing…You deal with it all the time, even for something like human diagnostics. Marketing guys/gals rarely talk to the scientists/engineers, but still think that they know the stuff ‘good enough’ to talk about it.
Yeah…if Enve was convinced that their 7.8’s were faster than any disc at 27 mph or less, then all they have to do is publish the data that leads them to believe that and their sales should increase.
So either the data doesn’t exist, or they don’t like money.
Ok, so there is an issue that no one seems to talk about with regards to this whole speed thing. There is not a single triathlete who rides a race maintaining the same exact speed for the entire race; and since resistance is related to the square of the speed, aerodynamics are more important the faster you go, and there are spots on many courses where you are going >30mph (even for the middle of pack athletes). It has already been validated several times in this forum that higher speed (30mph) translates to slower speeds as well…what I am saying is that you don’t even have to make that translation…it is relevant for most triathletes who are racing for placement or PB.
Yeah…if Enve was convinced that their 7.8’s were faster than any disc at 27 mph or less, then all they have to do is publish the data that leads them to believe that and their sales should increase.
So either the data doesn’t exist, or they don’t like money.
Ok, so there is an issue that no one seems to talk about with regards to this whole speed thing. There is not a single triathlete who rides a race maintaining the same exact speed for the entire race; and since resistance is related to the square of the speed, aerodynamics are more important the faster you go, and there are spots on many courses where you are going >30mph (even for the middle of pack athletes). It has already been validated several times in this forum that higher speed (30mph) translates to slower speeds as well…what I am saying is that you don’t even have to make that translation…it is relevant for most triathletes who are racing for placement or PB.
Stephen J
If only some guy named Reynolds could figure out a way to determine if the air flow at one speed and object size behaves the same as air flow at another speed and object size </pink font>
So basically this guy from Enve is trying to misinform the triathlon community in order to sell them the most overpriced wheels on the market. Definitely not a company I would support.
Cervelo, Specialized, Flo, HED, even Zipp manage to provide valuable and correct info to the community while still effectively marketing their products.
I had beers with some reps from ENVE in Kona last year, and they told me that the only reason they did not produce a disc, was that the market for a disc was so small it was not worth investment to manufacture one. There was absolutely nothing said about any belief that the 7.8 is faster, albeit it is a great wheel (IMO).
I had beers with some reps from ENVE in Kona last year, and they told me that the only reason they did not produce a disc, was that the market for a disc was so small it was not worth investment to manufacture one. There was absolutely nothing said about any belief that the 7.8 is faster, albeit it is a great wheel (IMO).
They would have been better off stating the truth, then inventing this BS story they invented. We’d all understand if they told us they were unwilling to spend a few million dollars on R&D on a forecast to sell 1000 disk wheels.
All marketing types have this in common. They keep their whole cards close to the chest, even if that info is not damaging to their brand, and publically state made up BS instead. Always. It pisses me the fuck off. We aren’t infants. We will figure out what’s really going on. They are just damaging their brand by making things up.
. The 7.8 was developed specifically for ironman distance triathletes. It performs head a shoulders above the rest in the real world because unlike most deep wheels it wasn’t optimized for 30mph which is standard in most aero testing. Optimizing the wheel for triathlon also means we prioritized stability in dynamic wind conditions over 30 mph aero efficiency. It’s a win for everyone but the world’s best time trialists and even then, the tradeoffs are minimal. We have put numerous time trial specialist on the top step of the podium who rode the 7.8 in a field full of solid rear disc wheels. **Adding a disc cover will negatively impact the wheels efficiency. **You’ll also add weight which regardless of what has been said in the past about weight no mattering much, it’s still a factor. Also, disc cover will hurt stability of the bike/wheel system.
