Yesterday Jonas Vingegaard buried his competition and the discussion about the safety of these bikes. Not only did he out speed his competition on the flatter part of the course but he also outclimbed them on his time trial bike ! Its not the bike thats unsafe as he and all of us triathletes have proven.
If anyone enters a corner going even 1 mile per hour faster than the machine can handle you will crash. Its not the bikes fault. The same thing applies to tricycles, bicycles, trucks and even racing cars. If you want to go fast learn to handle your machine !
I’m not sure anyone said tri bikes were inherently dangerous? Have I missed something?
I figured this was going to be how well he climbed on one tbh, not how dangerous they are ?
I think that it started in Pezcycling… I have had discussions a few times since it was put online…
I don’t know if that reserve 77/disc wheelset was sold out yesterday, but it sure is now.
I’m not sure anyone said tri bikes were inherently dangerous? Have I missed something?
I figured this was going to be how well he climbed on one tbh, not how dangerous they are ?
riding with auto traffic, praying mantis style positions… yes they are more dangerous than up right on a roadie
Are Mantis styles less safe?
Yes, time trial bikes are faster and also put the rider in a compromised position with less stability and access to the brakes.
Yes, a competent rides can ride them safely.
No, one person going fast on one TT on one TT bike does not prove that TT bikes are either safe or dangerous.
Like everything else it’s not black and white.
According to NBC he was doing a lot of TT position up the hill too.
The numbers on a light road vs a TT seem a bit weird. I certainly think a modern TT bike can get under the UCI limit, so it can’t be a road thing.
Pogacar’s data science people had him switch bikes, but considering the speeds were almost 20mph, I really don’t see why the road can be that much better.
According to NBC he was doing a lot of TT position up the hill too.
The numbers on a light road vs a TT seem a bit weird. I certainly think a modern TT bike can get under the UCI limit, so it can’t be a road thing.
Pogacar’s data science people had him switch bikes, but considering the speeds were almost 20mph, I really don’t see why the road can be that much better.
They said on The Move that Colnago’s TT big is ~2kgs heavier than their road bike.
I don’t know if that reserve 77/disc wheelset was sold out yesterday, but it sure is now.
Exactly what I was thinking. I’m sure people are scouring the internet for his socks too. It was a hell of a ride.
I thought you meant it was the end of the discussion about which bike is fastest.
According to NBC he was doing a lot of TT position up the hill too.
this is what some of us have been advocating for some time now. as in, for about 30 or 35 years 
i think what we’ve seen throughout this tour is that pog has very slightly more speed up climbs of a discrete length (a few clicks) than vingo. they’re very close; about as close as you can be. and yet over the last 4 miles of the tt, which were entirely uphill, averaging 7% grade, vingo on his “tri” bike put a minute on pog on his road bike.
when the bike changes took place (for those riders) the categorized climb contained a 1.3mi section that averaged 9.6% and was pretty steadily that. (here’s the route on ridewithgps). vingo was riding in the aero position until the pitch got to around 8 or 9 percent.
from the top of the categorized climb to the end, the route averaged about a 5% grade with a max grade of almost 8%. both wout and vingo remained in aero during that entire stretch. from what i saw just on the coverage both required something in the 8% to 9% range for them to get out of aero.
if there is a kind of course where it should be set up more like a tri bike, this is it. the pursuit position has to be in the spot for handling rather than for pure aerodynamics, and where a rider who spends an awful lot of time riding bike with aerobars in twisty, hilly terrain would have an advantage. also, any top pro triathlete has established the delta between aero position power and road bike power and he or she has worked really hard to draw that delta down to almost zero. it seems to me that’s what the jumbo riders have done. but that also includes knowing when you’re aboard that kind of bike how to climb fast on it and staying in aero on climbs that are of moderate pitch is how you do it.
Yesterday Jonas Vingegaard buried his competition and the discussion about the safety of these bikes. Not only did he out speed his competition on the flatter part of the course but he also outclimbed them on his time trial bike ! Its not the bike thats unsafe as he and all of us triathletes have proven.
If anyone enters a corner going even 1 mile per hour faster than the machine can handle you will crash. Its not the bikes fault. The same thing applies to tricycles, bicycles, trucks and even racing cars. If you want to go fast learn to handle your machine !
Am I reading this correctly that you are suggesting that because Vingegaard didn’t crash today in a tour race that weekend warriors are just as safe on a Tri bike as a road bike in everyday riding??
According to NBC he was doing a lot of TT position up the hill too.
The numbers on a light road vs a TT seem a bit weird. I certainly think a modern TT bike can get under the UCI limit, so it can’t be a road thing.
Pogacar’s data science people had him switch bikes, but considering the speeds were almost 20mph, I really don’t see why the road can be that much better.
Even the majority of the road bikes aren’t on the 6.8 kg limit. The TT rigs are much higher. There’s a build video of a Jumbo P5 on YouTube. They weigh it at the end. I do believe the P5 is lighter and faster than the Colnago
Yesterday Jonas Vingegaard buried his competition and the discussion about the safety of these bikes. Not only did he out speed his competition on the flatter part of the course but he also outclimbed them on his time trial bike ! Its not the bike thats unsafe as he and all of us triathletes have proven.
If anyone enters a corner going even 1 mile per hour faster than the machine can handle you will crash. Its not the bikes fault. The same thing applies to tricycles, bicycles, trucks and even racing cars. If you want to go fast learn to handle your machine !
Is it the rider or the bikes?
Do you think TT/Tri bike handling and stability has improved massively over the last 20 years? If so what do you think it is that makes the bike better handling? Is it frame geometry, better wheel aerodynamics meaning less twitchy, different rider positions?
I couldn’t imagine doing IMWC in Nice on my 20yo TT bike, whereas I can fly down the alps on my road bike swiftly with no issues.
Venga went 7.2-7.5 W/kg up the climb whereas Pogi was going more like 6.5 W/kg. I think a fully fit Pogi could have hit that W/kg on the road bike but maybe not on the TT bike. I agree with you, JV prepared this much better, likely 6-8 months (totally guessing here) of specific work on the TT bike and they won the Tour over 22 km.
Do you think TT/Tri bike handling and stability has improved massively over the last 20 years? If so what do you think it is that makes the bike better handling? Is it frame geometry, better wheel aerodynamics meaning less twitchy, different rider positions?
I couldn’t imagine doing IMWC in Nice on my 20yo TT bike, whereas I can fly down the alps on my road bike swiftly with no issues.
i would argue the opposite in some cases. i did race nice on my tri bike a couple of times 30 years ago and it was a perfectly capable bike. some of today’s TT bikes are horrible handlers. jumbo visma has the advantage of riding a bike brand with more tri bike sales than any company in history, and by a large margin. those guys know how to make a bike that handles well while the rider is in aero. meanwhile, the tour’s bike course designers have made it increasingly hard (it seems to me) for riders to ignore handling and topography in a TT. some bike brands have not caught up. they’re making bikes for straight, flat TTs.
i have always maintained that triathlon bike rides are not TTs. they are timed races over road race courses. this is why brands with deep tri bike histories make more capable bikes for today’s grand tour TTs (and prologues in U.S. races). tri bikes must take into consideration big descents, lots of corners, big ascents, and the use of deep front wheels. but it’s been that way since 1990.
Venga went 7.2-7.5 W/kg up the climb whereas Pogi was going more like 6.5 W/kg. I think a fully fit Pogi could have hit that W/kg on the road bike but maybe not on the TT bike. I agree with you, JV prepared this much better, likely 6-8 months (totally guessing here) of specific work on the TT bike and they won the Tour over 22 km.
there’s a lesson in this for triathletes. the last 4 miles of that ride climbed more than 1,300’. there’s a 1 mile section of that, early on, that vingo rode out of aero. the max grade was 13%. that section, averaging 10%, is what he rode out of aero. the last 2 mi following that averaged about 5% and he rode that in aero. on that section he put time in pog while pog was riding a road bike and it’s not like pog had a horrible day - he got 2nd on the stage. triathletes don’t trust that riding in aero is fast up a hill. there’s certain things triathletes do because of what feels fast (like riding rock hard tires). climbing out of aero feels fast. but unless it’s really steep, it probably isn’t fast.
Do you think TT/Tri bike handling and stability has improved massively over the last 20 years? If so what do you think it is that makes the bike better handling? Is it frame geometry, better wheel aerodynamics meaning less twitchy, different rider positions?
I couldn’t imagine doing IMWC in Nice on my 20yo TT bike, whereas I can fly down the alps on my road bike swiftly with no issues.
i would argue the opposite in some cases. i did race nice on my tri bike a couple of times 30 years ago and it was a perfectly capable bike. some of today’s TT bikes are horrible handlers. jumbo visma has the advantage of riding a bike brand with more tri bike sales than any company in history, and by a large margin. those guys know how to make a bike that handles well while the rider is in aero. meanwhile, the tour’s bike course designers have made it increasingly hard (it seems to me) for riders to ignore handling and topography in a TT. some bike brands have not caught up. they’re making bikes for straight, flat TTs.
i have always maintained that triathlon bike rides are not TTs. they are timed races over road race courses. this is why brands with deep tri bike histories make more capable bikes for today’s grand tour TTs (and prologues in U.S. races). tri bikes must take into consideration big descents, lots of corners, big ascents, and the use of deep front wheels. but it’s been that way since 1990.
Highly subjective but based on your history in the sport, what do you think are the best handling tri bikes out there today?
Sounds like Cervelo no.1 anyway
Venga went 7.2-7.5 W/kg up the climb whereas Pogi was going more like 6.5 W/kg. I think a fully fit Pogi could have hit that W/kg on the road bike but maybe not on the TT bike. I agree with you, JV prepared this much better, likely 6-8 months (totally guessing here) of specific work on the TT bike and they won the Tour over 22 km.
I’m looking forward to hearing @marcag go in to this, as I don’t think he quite did the high end of those numbers.
Agreed on the rest…Jonas attacked that course unlike any other rider and the preparation showed. His handling and aero discipline were superb, save for his wide knee adjustments likely due to his saddle…