Elliptical as a serious part of run training

Triathlon Forum
1

Curious as to whether there is a ratio that anyone would use to quantify Elliptical training against running.

I decided to have a go at a marathon, after training most of the season for a Half IM distance.
Can’t just jump into a monstrous run week, but do have to find a way without risking injury from overdoing it.

Running at the best of times isn’t a strong point in terms of speed, now adding distance, so comparative to speedy runners us slowpokes have to go several more hours to match speedy runners with respect to weekly totals. For example a good runner might go 60 miles a week in 8 hours of training, with variables speed sessions as well as long and slow, and so on. I might end up at 45.
So what sort of time or distance would you mix and match for adding an elliptical to the mix.
I started doing the elliptical as a way to start training early after the HIM, with a short run thrown in after the elliptical “run”.
After a week of strictly elliptical and running, I haven’t hurt anything (but then I might not have tried hard enough)

I have read through several articles (including Dan’s) and a few posts, but none relate to how much, how far, what ratio (if any).

2

I am using a Bionic Runner. Much closer to running than any Elliptical

3

Ask the Iron Cowboy. He should know…

4

I haven’t done a ton of elliptical, but have done enough elliptical and more than enough marathon training in the past to say it’s def not going to help much to do the elliptical in lieu of running more for marathon training.

For most folks, the marathon is ALL about conditioning your legs to tolerate the **impact **of running over 26 miles. Your legs will almost certainly give out before your cardio or overall energy levels. Your cardio will likely be a small and almost certainly non-limiting factor in comparison.

Unfortunately, the elliptical doesn’t address the impact at all. For a race like the marathon, you’re better off doing more running, even at super-slow paces, then doing elliptical since it’s almost all about training that impact resistance of your legs.

5

I think more useful than elliptical would be to add 4-5 hrs per week of walking and 1+ hrs off water running to the regular run plan

Dev

I haven’t done a ton of elliptical, but have done enough elliptical and more than enough marathon training in the past to say it’s def not going to help much to do the elliptical in lieu of running more for marathon training.

For most folks, the marathon is ALL about conditioning your legs to tolerate the **impact **of running over 26 miles. Your legs will almost certainly give out before your cardio or overall energy levels. Your cardio will likely be a small and almost certainly non-limiting factor in comparison.

Unfortunately, the elliptical doesn’t address the impact at all. For a race like the marathon, you’re better off doing more running, even at super-slow paces, then doing elliptical since it’s almost all about training that impact resistance of your legs.

6

To be honest, not practical if you live in the middle of a city (I mean really the middle and no Central Park here).

7

Well I would except I don’t think they’ll let me on the course with an elliptical machine, although I love the idea of the start gun going off and no on goes anywhere, it’s sort of Monty Pythonish.

8

In any case the problem with the elliptical is that first that you don’t work the eccentric contraction. Walking is much better. The elliptical also activates your calf and achilles “backwards”. There is no push off phase where the calf is contracting and the tibial muscles lengthening. Also on the walking front, you can actually race walk which on the surface sounds silly but will improve your range of motion in the hips for running with a more enhanced extension phase behind your centerline (water running can also help to work on this since you can really work a large extension phase behind you with zero pounding…doing that on land generally implies very high landing forces after the big push off).

9

I’m aiming for Hamilton Nov 6, that’s so close in training time,
I don’t think walking and water running is going to get me there.
.
I’m in HIM shape, but not in marathon shape.
And bumping straight up to marathon shape running is bound to cause a little grief.
Almost any training plan has me doing 20+ miles this weekend and I’m barely upright after last weekend

This article http://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/Running/Treadmill_or_Elliptical__4816.html two years ago (nearly) was interesting and there are others that talk about it, I was looking for someone who had tried it and had some quantitative results or suggestions for training.

I’m not worried about the impact, I have Hokas :0)

10

I haven’t done a ton of elliptical, but have done enough elliptical and more than enough marathon training in the past to say it’s def not going to help much to do the elliptical in lieu of running more for marathon training.

For most folks, the marathon is ALL about conditioning your legs to tolerate the **impact **of running over 26 miles. Your legs will almost certainly give out before your cardio or overall energy levels. Your cardio will likely be a small and almost certainly non-limiting factor in comparison.

Unfortunately, the elliptical doesn’t address the impact at all. For a race like the marathon, you’re better off doing more running, even at super-slow paces, then doing elliptical since it’s almost all about training that impact resistance of your legs.

Random thought and perhaps this deserves it’s own thread: what do you think about incorporating very-long jump rope sessions. I was just told to ratchet down the swimming and running (shoulder) so I’m currently burying myself in TR’s high volume sustained power build followed by their high volume 40k TT plan. I was thinking jump rope would keep my shoulder in a neutral position while still conditioning my feet, lower legs, and knees for impact.

Also, I’ve seen studies showing that plyometrics can increase running economy. I’m wondering if jump rope could have a similar effect.

11

I’m aiming for Hamilton Nov 6, that’s so close in training time,
I don’t think walking and water running is going to get me there.
.
I’m in HIM shape, but not in marathon shape.
And bumping straight up to marathon shape running is bound to cause a little grief.
Almost any training plan has me doing 20+ miles this weekend and I’m barely upright after last weekend

This article http://www.slowtwitch.com/...lliptical__4816.html two years ago (nearly) was interesting and there are others that talk about it, I was looking for someone who had tried it and had some quantitative results or suggestions for training.

I’m not worried about the impact, I have Hokas :0)

Wait…if you are in half IM shape that means you can do 13 miles. Which basically means you can do 21 miles without much of a problem “tomorrow”. The problem is the last 5 miles. Everyone gets confused with all of these programs floating all over the internet and part of the problem with most of those marathon programs is that they are watered down version of what elite marathoners do. Fine if you are an elite marathoner, a 20 mile run takes you much less than 2 hours. But for more age groupers, a 20 mile run is like 2.5 to 3 hour run. This is totally unneccessary. The only good reason for the long run is it jacks up your overall weekly mileage but you don’t have to do a dress rehearsal of your race every weekend to make the physiological adaptations to do your race. You just have to make the physiological adaptations. Jacking up your weekly mileage through frequency, and yes, adding in daily 30-60 minutes of walking on top of your running will be very beneficial. You already have the cardio to last a 4.5 hours to 6 hours race (Half IM), so cardio and oxygen delivery is not your problem. The problem is the resiliency on your feet. Walking is the best base training for running. Walking does everything you do in running at much lower impact.

Hokas don’t entirely save you from the impact. You still have to keep your body upright for the entire race and even in Hokas you use all the muscles to keep your body upright vs falling forward on the next stride. You don’t have to do that on an elliptical. It’s a great rehab option, but its going to be way less effective than combo of additional walking and water running on top of your real running.

If you are going to do ellliptical, you may as well ride the same hours and get specificity for triathlon anyway.

12

Crank the incline to 15% and power hike a treadmill. (If you’re fortunate enough, find a good hill/mountain to hike) Keep good form and don’t slouch. I do that before even looking at an eliptical

13

I’m actually not sure what Dev is saying, but I would seriously caution if you haven’t run marathons before, making the jump from half marathon to full marathon is NOT an easy one. It’s multiple fold harder than, for example, making the jump from a 10k to a half marathon.

I’ve done 6 half ironmans, and none of them have compared in difficulty to racing a full marathon (this was when I was a pure marathoner, NOT as a triathlete trying to run a full marathon a la Gwen Jorgeson.) The pounding of 26.2 at open race pace is simply unparalleled compared to HIM.

I’d say if you can get your weekend long run up to 22 miles, you’ll have a good sense of what’s in store for you. Ignore all the online posters and plans who say you can get away with 15 milers or even 17 mile long runs - you’re not an experienced marathoner, so you need to push that distance to get a realistic sense of what kind of suffering you’re going to be in for. Do that 22 miler two or three times, and you’ll actually be very well prepared for the marathon.

I can complete HIMs at a decent clip even with half-baked training, and still do ok compared to my ‘in-shape’ condition, and without too much agony. Def not true for the marathon. 26.2 miles of running is a whole different level of specificity and training if you’re racing it and not just finishing it.

14

After all that, can I ask why you’re shooting for an 11/6 marathon when you haven’t been training as if you were running an 11/6 marathon?

There’s probably more than a few a couple months later that would allow you to properly train for it (without risking an injury that knocks you out for 6-8 weeks)

15

I’m actually not sure what Dev is saying, but I would seriously caution if you haven’t run marathons before, making the jump from half marathon to full marathon is NOT an easy one. It’s multiple fold harder than, for example, making the jump from a 10k to a half marathon.

I’ve done 6 half ironmans, and none of them have compared in difficulty to racing a full marathon (this was when I was a pure marathoner, NOT as a triathlete trying to run a full marathon a la Gwen Jorgeson.) The pounding of 26.2 at open race pace is simply unparalleled compared to HIM.

I’d say if you can get your weekend long run up to 22 miles, you’ll have a good sense of what’s in store for you. Ignore all the online posters and plans who say you can get away with 15 milers or even 17 mile long runs - you’re not an experienced marathoner, so you need to push that distance to get a realistic sense of what kind of suffering you’re going to be in for. Do that 22 miler two or three times, and you’ll actually be very well prepared for the marathon.

I can complete HIMs at a decent clip even with half-baked training, and still do ok compared to my ‘in-shape’ condition, and without too much agony. Def not true for the marathon. 26.2 miles of running is a whole different level of specificity and training if you’re racing it and not just finishing it.

Maybe you did not read what I said. Anyone who can run 13 miles can run 21 miles and get through it. The problem is always the last 5-6 miles. What is the best way to get physiologically adapted to it? Well it’s not doing weekly 22 mile runs and then sitting around most of the next week trashed and sore and having to take time off and then week over week carrying niggling injuries. 22 mile long run if you’re a Kenyan and getting it done in 1:50 “jogging around”. It’s even fine for your 2:40 guy getting it done in around 2:20. Once you get a lot slower, best to restrict long run by time and figure out ways to physiologically adapt to the race day stress without breaking the body on next weekend’s training.

What I am telling him is not to worry about single long runs. What is more important is weekly mileage. Let’s take 2 runners. One guy does a 22 mile long run and three other runs of 6-7 miles for a total of 40 miles. Another does a long run of 10 miles but much faster and 5-6 other runs of 4-8 miles also run much faster than the first guy. I’m betting on the second guy to have a better marathon.Throw in one week where the longer run is 16-18 miles and that should be plenty if that person is also walking 4+ hours per week on top of this and maybe throwing in some water running. What AK crafty said about getting on a treadmill and power hiking at 15% grade is a much better compliment to running than the elliptical too, but careful with that on the calf and push off perhaps doing some power hiking also at 0 percent grade every few minutes to give the calves and achilles a break

16

Agree! I ran a marathon last Dec, had not done enough long runs on pavement, and even though I did okay, am pretty sure it gave me my
sciatica issues and that luckily only took 6 months to get rid of. Reason I did not sign up for Boston in 2017, no desire to get hurt again.
Those last miles are a killer!!!

17

I’m actually not sure what Dev is saying, but I would seriously caution if you haven’t run marathons before, making the jump from half marathon to full marathon is NOT an easy one. It’s multiple fold harder than, for example, making the jump from a 10k to a half marathon.

I’ve done 6 half ironmans, and none of them have compared in difficulty to racing a full marathon (this was when I was a pure marathoner, NOT as a triathlete trying to run a full marathon a la Gwen Jorgeson.) The pounding of 26.2 at open race pace is simply unparalleled compared to HIM.

I’d say if you can get your weekend long run up to 22 miles, you’ll have a good sense of what’s in store for you. Ignore all the online posters and plans who say you can get away with 15 milers or even 17 mile long runs - you’re not an experienced marathoner, so you need to push that distance to get a realistic sense of what kind of suffering you’re going to be in for. Do that 22 miler two or three times, and you’ll actually be very well prepared for the marathon.

I can complete HIMs at a decent clip even with half-baked training, and still do ok compared to my ‘in-shape’ condition, and without too much agony. Def not true for the marathon. 26.2 miles of running is a whole different level of specificity and training if you’re racing it and not just finishing it.

Maybe you did not read what I said. Anyone who can run 13 miles can run 21 miles and get through it. The problem is always the last 5-6 miles. What is the best way to get physiologically adapted to it? Well it’s not doing weekly 22 mile runs and then sitting around most of the next week trashed and sore and having to take time off and then week over week carrying niggling injuries. 22 mile long run if you’re a Kenyan and getting it done in 1:50 “jogging around”. It’s even fine for your 2:40 guy getting it done in around 2:20. Once you get a lot slower, best to restrict long run by time and figure out ways to physiologically adapt to the race day stress without breaking the body on next weekend’s training.

What I am telling him is not to worry about single long runs. What is more important is weekly mileage. Let’s take 2 runners. One guy does a 22 mile long run and three other runs of 6-7 miles for a total of 40 miles. Another does a long run of 10 miles but much faster and 5-6 other runs of 4-8 miles also run much faster than the first guy. I’m betting on the second guy to have a better marathon.Throw in one week where the longer run is 16-18 miles and that should be plenty if that person is also walking 4+ hours per week on top of this and maybe throwing in some water running. What AK crafty said about getting on a treadmill and power hiking at 15% grade is a much better compliment to running than the elliptical too, but careful with that on the calf and push off perhaps doing some power hiking also at 0 percent grade every few minutes to give the calves and achilles a break

I actually disagree pretty strongly the recommendation that most newb marathoners not run 20 milers and just do 15 or even less for the long run (but faster).

I can say with certainty that if you’ve never done the 20+ miler long runs, and only have ran up to 15 miles at a time, you’re gonna have a really, really rough time of it on race day, and dramatically underperform. I’ve done this exact training regiment myself, with 40mpw and 15mpw max long runs. In fact, it was the total failure of this type of regimen for me that pushed me toward the Pfitz bigger-mileage programs.

I do think the equation is different if you’ve done that 20+miler training in the past and/or have run a bunch of marathons. I’m fairly certain there’s some sort of long-term physiologic change in the legs that occurs when you’ve done it, such that it retains that endurance capability for much longer, and thus you can get away with a lot less in the future. Much like a super fast ex-swimmer can their FFFOP speed back with shockingly low yardage whereas a beginner with otherwise good potential might have to swim 20k+ per week just to become a barely FOMOP swimmer because they haven’t done it before.

The one thing the 20+ miler does for sure that is crucial for newbs like the OP, is that it’s usually a rude awakening to how unprepared you are, physically and mentally, to RACE the 26.2. It’s a crucial step for beginners who aren’t gifted runners to at least do one or more of those long runs. I’m also certain that for newbs to the distance, you get a lot of physiological changes that your body just doesn’t do at 15 miles if you’ve never done 20+ before.

But I feel very strongly that if you’re new to marathon racing and training, if you haven’t yet run the 20+mile training run ever, you will almost certainly get a really rude awakening at mile 22 on race day, even if you’ve been putting in your 40mpw, fairly fast.

18

I’m actually not sure what Dev is saying, but I would seriously caution if you haven’t run marathons before, making the jump from half marathon to full marathon is NOT an easy one. It’s multiple fold harder than, for example, making the jump from a 10k to a half marathon.

I’ve done 6 half ironmans, and none of them have compared in difficulty to racing a full marathon (this was when I was a pure marathoner, NOT as a triathlete trying to run a full marathon a la Gwen Jorgeson.) The pounding of 26.2 at open race pace is simply unparalleled compared to HIM.

I’d say if you can get your weekend long run up to 22 miles, you’ll have a good sense of what’s in store for you. Ignore all the online posters and plans who say you can get away with 15 milers or even 17 mile long runs - you’re not an experienced marathoner, so you need to push that distance to get a realistic sense of what kind of suffering you’re going to be in for. Do that 22 miler two or three times, and you’ll actually be very well prepared for the marathon.

I can complete HIMs at a decent clip even with half-baked training, and still do ok compared to my ‘in-shape’ condition, and without too much agony. Def not true for the marathon. 26.2 miles of running is a whole different level of specificity and training if you’re racing it and not just finishing it.

Maybe you did not read what I said. Anyone who can run 13 miles can run 21 miles and get through it. The problem is always the last 5-6 miles. What is the best way to get physiologically adapted to it? Well it’s not doing weekly 22 mile runs and then sitting around most of the next week trashed and sore and having to take time off and then week over week carrying niggling injuries. 22 mile long run if you’re a Kenyan and getting it done in 1:50 “jogging around”. It’s even fine for your 2:40 guy getting it done in around 2:20. Once you get a lot slower, best to restrict long run by time and figure out ways to physiologically adapt to the race day stress without breaking the body on next weekend’s training.

What I am telling him is not to worry about single long runs. What is more important is weekly mileage. Let’s take 2 runners. One guy does a 22 mile long run and three other runs of 6-7 miles for a total of 40 miles. Another does a long run of 10 miles but much faster and 5-6 other runs of 4-8 miles also run much faster than the first guy. I’m betting on the second guy to have a better marathon.Throw in one week where the longer run is 16-18 miles and that should be plenty if that person is also walking 4+ hours per week on top of this and maybe throwing in some water running. What AK crafty said about getting on a treadmill and power hiking at 15% grade is a much better compliment to running than the elliptical too, but careful with that on the calf and push off perhaps doing some power hiking also at 0 percent grade every few minutes to give the calves and achilles a break

I actually disagree pretty strongly the recommendation that most newb marathoners not run 20 milers and just do 15 or even less for the long run (but faster).

I can say with certainty that if you’ve never done the 20+ miler long runs, and only have ran up to 15 miles at a time, you’re gonna have a really, really rough time of it on race day, and dramatically underperform. I’ve done this exact training regiment myself, with 40mpw and 15mpw max long runs. In fact, it was the total failure of this type of regimen for me that pushed me toward the Pfitz bigger-mileage programs.

I do think the equation is different if you’ve done that 20+miler training in the past and/or have run a bunch of marathons. I’m fairly certain there’s some sort of long-term physiologic change in the legs that occurs when you’ve done it, such that it retains that endurance capability for much longer, and thus you can get away with a lot less in the future. Much like a super fast ex-swimmer can their FFFOP speed back with shockingly low yardage whereas a beginner with otherwise good potential might have to swim 20k+ per week just to become a barely FOMOP swimmer because they haven’t done it before.

The one thing the 20+ miler does for sure that is crucial for newbs like the OP, is that it’s usually a rude awakening to how unprepared you are, physically and mentally, to RACE the 26.2. It’s a crucial step for beginners who aren’t gifted runners to at least do one or more of those long runs. I’m also certain that for newbs to the distance, you get a lot of physiological changes that your body just doesn’t do at 15 miles if you’ve never done 20+ before.

But I feel very strongly that if you’re new to marathon racing and training, if you haven’t yet run the 20+mile training run ever, you will almost certainly get a really rude awakening at mile 22 on race day, even if you’ve been putting in your 40mpw, fairly fast.

Did you even read that he plans to run in early Nov? He does not have time to cram in long runs and recover in time. Better to save the long run for race and ffocus on mileage-time on ffeet and adaptions…did. you also walk 4. Hrs per week?

19

Quite right, I have only done 10 marathons (7 within an IM) and I must admit I only finished 9. So I have probably sublimated any memory I have of what a normal training program might be.

20

Woops missed that part about Nov.

Not sure I can recommend anything productive for that. Good luck!