https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0n-nnRbFBs&t=642s
I really found this helpful and what I was sensing with the TR program. I had already started modifying the long distance plan, but this is leaving me to wonder if there is a better structured plan out there that is more pyramidal or polarized. Lots of comments under the youtube video, but I am curious to hear there triathlete experience with TR and/or other structured programs out there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0n-nnRbFBs&t=642s
I really found this helpful and what I was sensing with the TR program. I had already started modifying the long distance plan, but this is leaving me to wonder if there is a better structured plan out there that is more pyramidal or polarized. Lots of comments under the youtube video, but I am curious to hear there triathlete experience with TR and/or other structured programs out there.
You may want to read this thread:
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Trainerroad_intensity_too_darn_high!_P6894043-3/
Very interesting topic, and i can see the related SlowTwitch topic on it has already been linked.
I think there is a big difference in what intensity a triathlete can handle when also running and swimming and then a pure cyclist! Thus i do feel the intensity in the tri plans is too high, maybe not for base, but for Build at least (i always crash before reaching specialty).
For pure cyclist it is different! I’m 100% sure that if all the training i was doing was 3x per week low volume TR i could manage it, atleast i think so! For the med/high volume i think he is right 5/6 days a week of high intensity TR seems crazy, would not even be able to get myself started on that.
But what about low volume, the average Joe, he should give an example of how he would build it then!
You have 3½ hours to train, 2x1h 1x1½ h. How much of that would he advocate to just being endurance then, that is what i really think his video lacks to answer, because the big question is, would doing 2½/3½h as endurance and then one Sweet Spot session really outperform 3x sweet spot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0n-nnRbFBs&t=642s
I really found this helpful and what I was sensing with the TR program. I had already started modifying the long distance plan, but this is leaving me to wonder if there is a better structured plan out there that is more pyramidal or polarized. Online blackjack for Canadians https://www.newenglandsummit.com/where-to-play-blackjack-legally-online/ Lots of comments under the youtube video, but I am curious to hear there triathlete experience with TR and/or other structured programs out there.
Nice! Thanks for sharing!
As a pure cyclist, I could never handle the intensity of most of the med/high volume plans (despite my volume-in-hours being well over the high). I self adjust quite a bit when using TR. My other criticism is that a lot of the workouts are just trivial variations on the same thing. Seems silly at times to have like 20 different interval workouts which are probably physiologically equivalent.
Everything else about TR is great. It’s smooth, great tools, great ecosystem, etc.
Oh yeah, and I think at some point they may have to walk back their evangelizing of heat training, sauna sessions, etc.
My other criticism is that a lot of the workouts are just trivial variations on the same thing. Seems silly at times to have like 20 different interval workouts which are probably physiologically equivalent.
This is actually one of my favorite things. I love not getting burned out on the same workout. I love the little subtle variations. To me, they are mentally valuable
I used TR for 4 years following their SBR low volume plan. I quickly went to a different running plan as I got injured in that first year. After 2 years I noticed that I wasn’t progressing after base phase. I kept getting crushed by build and specialty. At the end of last year I concluded there was too much intensity and left. Also felt there were a bunch of empty promises and lack of worthwhile development in their platform. I went looking for a fully integrated sbr plan, now doing 80/20 and pleased so far.
I used TR for 4 years following their SBR low volume plan. I quickly went to a different running plan as I got injured in that first year. After 2 years I noticed that I wasn’t progressing after base phase. I kept getting crushed by build and specialty. At the end of last year I concluded there was too much intensity and left. Also felt there were a bunch of empty promises and lack of worthwhile development in their platform. I went looking for a fully integrated sbr plan, now doing 80/20 and pleased so far.
What plans are you following for 80/20?
As a pure cyclist, I could never handle the intensity of most of the med/high volume plans (despite my volume-in-hours being well over the high). I self adjust quite a bit when using TR. My other criticism is that a lot of the workouts are just trivial variations on the same thing. Seems silly at times to have like 20 different interval workouts which are probably physiologically equivalent.
Everything else about TR is great. It’s smooth, great tools, great ecosystem, etc.
Oh yeah, and I think at some point they may have to walk back their evangelizing of heat training, sauna sessions, etc.
Their iPhone app is my favorite. Simple and polished. Even though I have a coach now I use TR to do the workouts. TR did bury me years ago when I followed a mid-volume HIM plan.
I’m currently on the last week of mid-volume half Ironman plan. I don’t follow their run or swim workouts. I have started and stopped the half plans at least a half dozen times over the years. I struggle with the intensity when also working in running and swimming. There are many back to back 90 min days mainly at sweet spot that just don’t work for me. This year I’m adjusting to do longer endurance rides once a week. For $100 a year I feel like I get my monies worth. Though would be nice to see a little innovation in the plans.
Watched the video, interesting points. I think there is a bit of a disconnect between the plans and the overall TR message.
To get the most out of TR you have to pay attention to some degree to the entire ecosystem around it (i.e., the podcast and forum).
Lots of people burn out on it. I think the number one cause of that is people picking a too high volume plan.
Low volume is 3.5hrs/week usually, mid 5-7, high 9-10. If you just look at the number and compare it to what you’re used to, you probably pick a mid or high volume.
The TR people would tell you that most people should start on low volume, particularly if they’re newer to structured training. A really solid way to “do TR†is to do the three low volume workouts, then fill the week with easy rides after that.
They’d also tell you almost no one can handle high volume, that you have to be a genetic outlier to make that work.
Older riders should consider spreading out low volume so they’re doing the three workouts over a week and a half. Many people would be well suited to mix recovery weeks in more frequently than the plans do.
There’s also discussion of the various ways you can be over or under testing FTP, how to check, how to adjust either way if you do, etc.
It just takes a little while to pick up on all of that. That’s probably a weakness of the program generally. Overall though, it has really worked for me. I would not tell you that something else would not have worked better of course, I have no idea.
I still use TR, but stopped following their plans. I did mostly low volume plans, tried mid-volume one year. During the 4 years I did it, I only ever made gains during the Base phase. Thereafter, my fitness was flat, and once even declined during the Build phase. A few conclusions I reached: not enough aerobic endurance work; and not periodized enough (for short course tri, the base, build, and specific phases are basically all the same in TR). I’ve made my own plan last year, saw better results (while also being less tired), and this year I’m making my own workouts. At this point I’m just using TR for long endurance rides while I watch videos.
sweet spot workouts can be beneficial as the “stress” of the week such as in a pyramidal plan. But to have sweet spot in place of recovery days is not a recipe of success! I am prone to the ANS dysfunction mentioned in the video if I am not recovering properly (impaired sleep etc).
I still use trainer road because I love the platform to create custom workouts and I love the +/- buttons within the workouts. I follow the plan in that I simply do 1 TR effort (I am on a trip plan) and then recovery the other ride (on Zwift) and some type of zone 2 + sprint (Berryessa) the other day. But I structure my year using the TR set up
for 8 weeks I will a sweet spot workout, test
then over/unders - re test
then supra threshold intervals , retest
then race specific intervals, retest
repeat!
no way in hell could I follow the plan as is. I know a professional triathlete with a 5.4 watt/kg FTP who got buried on the build plan. doing vo2 intervals at 120% FTP for ~2-3 mins the day after a hard run day is bonkers
70.3 level 2
.
My other criticism is that a lot of the workouts are just trivial variations on the same thing. Seems silly at times to have like 20 different interval workouts which are probably physiologically equivalent.
This is actually one of my favorite things. I love not getting burned out on the same workout. I love the little subtle variations. To me, they are mentally valuable
Subtle variations for workouts is something I am a strong believer in. In running if you are training for the mile then 400 repeats are a staple. Something like 8x400 at pace with 90" rest. But if you only do 400 repeats you are giving your mind a break by only doing “1 lap”. So even by doing something like 6x500 @ pace w/ 90" rest will give similar physical benefits (comparable volume, rest, and pace) but will also give you nice mental benefits of running through the lap.
There are probably similar advantages to changing up the cycling interval lengths as well
former TR user here as well. I actually really liked their app, but i found trying to follow their plans, i was always burnt out. WAY too much high intensity stuff.
i swapped over to 80/20 endurance (subscription) and love it.
Trainer road plans are hard!
I am a back of the pack 63 years old triathlete and I did my last two Ironmans using TR
For me it is the best you can get for 20 USD a months, not as good as private coach but fraction of the cost!
For me zwift is too playfull and I end up doing junk miles or crazy bike with no purpose so zi now focus only on TR
I think a big mistake for many is to want more that they can chew, manymwouldn’t want low volume (just because it says LOW volume) and kill themselves with high volume.
I follow low volume and add duration when I feel good but usually bike workout are tiring.’I improved by 20% my FTP thanks to the structure effort on HT!
I like that it lay out the weekly program and I tweak it mostly to accomodate training with friends but I follow the program quite accurately.
I a, not sure that forma top guy it would work as well as it worked for me but I am still planning to use TR this year.
The trainerroad people have said themselves many times that the high-volume plans are for people who have loads of time to train and recover.
I used the low volume plan for a half-IM a couple of years ago. It would have gone better had I had a power meter at that time, so I was using virtual power, but I didn’t find the bike workouts to be overly hard or difficult to recover from. 2 keys are to not overestimate your FTP, and to select the proper plan for your goals. I also use a dumb trainer, so no erg mode. I’m not really convinced of the benefits of erg, particularly at higher intensities or getting close to your limits, mostly because of the death spiral. In slope mode, I just pedal a bit harder (staying in the zone) if I’m feeling good, or back off if I’m not.
I’m on zwift now, and may as well stick with it since racing starts up in a little over 2 months and my indoor training time will be going down. But I’ve already decided that I’ll go back to TR next winter, probably in conjunction with Zwift.
The trainerroad people have said themselves many times that the high-volume plans are for people who have loads of time to train and recover.
Maybe they’ve said that, but they also implied the opposite. E.g. on forums or podcast someone will say they’re having trouble with the high or mid plan, and the advice is invariably to drop down to the next “lowest” plan. That’s the same as telling people to spend less time training.
But if someone attempted the “high” plan, it implies they had the time to do it. I haven’t seen the advice, “Keep going, but substitute a 2-hour Z1 endurance ride for one or two interval workouts each week, and make sure the rest of the interval workouts are top quality.” In the TR world the frequency of those interval workouts have absolute primacy.
And the time it requires for the “high” plans isn’t that much time. It’s not “pro” level training hours.
The trainerroad people have said themselves many times that the high-volume plans are for people who have loads of time to train and recover.
Maybe they’ve said that, but they also implied the opposite. E.g. on forums or podcast someone will say they’re having trouble with the high or mid plan, and the advice is invariably to drop down to the next “lowest” plan. That’s the same as telling people to spend less time training.
But if someone attempted the “high” plan, it implies they had the time to do it. I haven’t seen the advice, “Keep going, but substitute a 90-minute Z1 endurance ride for one or two interval workouts each week, and make sure the rest of the interval workouts are top quality.” In the TR world the frequency of those interval workouts have absolute primacy.
I listen to their podcast quite religiously, and they’ll often discuss what to do when having trouble hitting intervals, recovery between workouts etc. It’s not just about having the time to “do” the plan, it’s about whether the work can be absorbed or not. thats why I said train AND recover. Those topics are discussed all the time.
they don’t really advocate for Z1 rides for 90 minutes because those aren’t really giving a training stimulus (their words, not mine. I’m not well-versed enough to assess that claim). they also don’t discourage them either, if you want to do them, go ahead. They’ve often also talked about the importance of having fun on the bike, and doing whatever you need to do to keep motivated. So if a 2 hour Z1 ride with some friends on the weekend is what you want, go ahead.
In any case, I think Dylan has plenty of good stuff on his site, but he also has a conflict of interest here. That’s not to say that he’s incorrect, but I noticed in this and the Zwift training plan video he did that there is a lot of cherry-picking certain workouts that he doesn’t like.