I’m not out to be argumentative on this, but I’m not really advocating a warning. Simply, if an official is going to make a recommendation to the Head Referee to give a drafting penalty, then what is harm (I personally only see benefit) in letting the drafter know that you’ll be reporting them? Sure, the Head Referee may overturn it - we all know that , and if so, lucky for them. If they think they’ve been nailed and ride too hard, only to have the Head Referee disagree, that’s their problem - you didn’t make them ride extra hard, you were simply doing your job. If I think I’ve been hit with a 4 minute penalty, the main thing that will go through my mind isn’t speeding up to counteract it, but to stop drafting and avoid getting a 12 minute penalty!! After seeing the pelotons in Florida, something MUST change or people will get more and more frustrated. Luckily, most riders in Florida were following the rules, but there were way too many cheaters this year compared to year’s past from my view.
“Simply, if an official is going to make a recommendation to the Head Referee to give a drafting penalty, then what is harm (I personally only see benefit) in letting the drafter know that you’ll be reporting them? Sure, the Head Referee may overturn it - we all know that , and if so, lucky for them.”
Assuming that the officials know what they’re looking for and report the details to the head referee, I can’t think why the referee would overrule him.
Could anyone give an example why he would ?
Happened about 7 years ago, in a local non-sanctioned Oly distance duathlon race. Going up a hill I was pedaling as hard as I could to pass the guy in front of me. It was a long steep hill and right when I was on his back wheel the ref/motorcycle came by. It took me a minute to pass and I didn’t do it right then and I also didn’t drop back so the ref waved his finger at me and moved on. I knew I wasn’t drafting and I thought the ref must have known that too and had only merely given me a warning. Well, surprise, surprise, the race rules stated an automatic DQ for drafting on the bike. I didn’t find out about it until the day after, and this didn’t feel good. I am no saint and I know how nearly impossible it is to not “violate” the rules by not passing or dropping back as quickly as required to not “intentionally” draft. However, since then I have only received on only one other penalty (no DQ) and honestly couldn’t tell you when during the race it happened.
Sure, 1 penalty for a DQ is harsh, and rules now allow for 2 penalties (sometimes 3) but I am certain that I deserved those penalties when I got them. I also know that it didn’t help not knowing or knowing when it happened since by then it was too late. I also know that it would take a lot of effort on my part to get 2-3 penalties during the bike portion of any distance race, even though I know first hand how hard it is to not at least look like I’m drafting.
tritnow,
You said that knowing that you were going get a drafting penalty wouldn’t help you that much. That’s true for you and all the other people who are out there doing there dang best to stay within the rules. The real problem in my mind, and something I think needs to be dealt with, are the serial drafters. These people are TRYING to draft, and will only stop if they know they are on the edge of a DQ. Luckily, most of us are like you and try our best to race according to the spirit of the event.
Been in the sport since 1985 and got my first ever penalty (of any sort) this past summer at a sprint race in a local series. Came upon a very closely knit paceline of 6 riders. Went around four but as I came up on the fifth he accelerated so I couldn’t pass him (put him in a very blatant position of drafting the lead cyclist). Just then the draft marshal came up…and by all accounts I did not pass the fifth athlete in the time allowed. 4 minute penalty…bam. It stung…for two reasons…one…I am probably one of the most vocal about my distaste for drafting of anyone I know…and two…he was right. Four minutes in a race that took a little over an hour dropped me back more than 25 places. But ultimately I was in the wrong and as much as the official didn’t see the events leading up to the call…he was right. What’s my point…no point…just that even the most vigilant anti drafters do get a bad call sometimes.
Here’s my solution (sort of). How about modifying the current timing chip (or making a new one). Draft marshall come up…sees you in violation…points a laser remote at your chip (so as to not mistake you for anyone else around you…although if they are close enough to be mistaken then they deserve to get one too)…it beeps once for your first violation. Another time later in the race…same thing…new marshall…beeps twice for second offense. Now you and those around you are fully aware that this is your second violation. Third time is the charm…damn thing beeps incessantly until you get back into transition and an official can shut it off (somewhere in a very apparent drafters that have been DQd pen would be nice). I know this is going to get flamed into a crisp by some and maybe praised by others but it sort of takes the guesswork out of the (but I didn’t know I was in violation)complaint. Yeah it’s gonna cost more for the chip…but hey…the cost of doing an Ironman is going up all the time…what’s another 25bucks for the piece of mind it provides.
Not sure how to solve the IMFL issue…that is an awful lot of people in a very small space. I don’t condone their actions but do sympathize with their predicament. But anyone doing any race had better be darn sure they know the rules before getting involved. Don’t know of any other sport that the athlete competing at such a high level doesn’t go into the game knowing ALL the rules. Know them or don’t play the game. To those want to suck on my wheel at future races…be warned…I’ll do whatever it takes to get you off my back. Some people need to learn the hard way.
flame on
(shooting from the hip here)
If you know or suspect that a particular triathlon is a draft fest, and as such will ruin your experience, then don’t do that race, and so inform the RD. This might have the effect of 1) shutting the race down due to lack of participants, 2) modifying the race so that drafting is deterred (wave start, hilly course, more marshals) or 3) no effect (the market indicates that drafting isn’t a problem).
Be prepared to pay the potential costs of this: fewer participants per race, higher entry fee (to cover extra marshals), fewer races.
Judging by the demand for entry into the dot Ironman races, I’d say that the market doesn’t care about draft-fest races very much. If you were the RD for one of these races, and had the choice of a) selling out your race as is within hours or days, or b) raising the entry fee or reducing the number of participants or increasing the production costs or all three, which would you choose?
Ken Lehner
you are assuming all referees are very experienced. Some are brand new and what they thought they saw and what really happened are two different things. that gets discovered when they resond to the head referees questions. sometimes when debriefed it turns out that details were missed so the penalty gets tossed. Or you observed something on course and wrote it up but upon later review you realise that the call should not have been made.
I would suggest that you try working as an official. there are many rules that we have to follow to make a call as well as the race rules that we have to enforce. It is not easy
good example drafting: the referee has to be in a location to eliminate paralax, the event must me timed, bike number, bike type, gender, clothing description, decription of how close for how long all must be noted , forget one of those and the violation gets tossed.
why ? if you come up after the race and say its not me, I’m going to say show me the bike and gear if they match upheld, if it says green trek and you have a red cervelo overturned
errors get made so report details are critical
overtaken: rider got written up for failure to drop back and out of the zone, under review it is determined that they slowed up as much as it was safe given the road condition and the proximity of riders. head ref gives racer the benifit of the doubt and no penalty is assesed
I could give you a million senarios. fact remains under USAT referee guidlines we act as observers not traffic cops, we watch we do not interfere . we do not give warninigs.
I understand what you are saying, Eric, and I don’t think anyone here is doubting the difficulty of the job. I’m not asking for warnings. I’m simply wondering what would be wrong with an official letting a rider know that you are going to ask the Head Referee for a penalty? That’s not a warning. If you write us up, you are suggesting we receive a penalty. I contend that this would not only help in cutting down on intentional drafting, but that it does absolutely no harm, even if the Head Ref overturns the penalty.
I would be willing to bet that, if you took a poll, 90% of the people who get penalties see the official on the motorcycle next to them writing down all the information Eric noted above. Maybe Tom can ask the dqed guy how he didn’t see the official next to him in any of his three dings. Most of the people I know can tell you exactly when they were penalized.
Bob Sigerson
Here in Australia Ken Baggs (race director of IMOZ) has the best systems at his races. The cyclist is notified by being shown a yellow card (lke in soccer or rugby) and usually their number displayed to them as well. The rider then has to pull over and serve his/her time penalty in a penalty box on the bike course. There are more than one penalty boxes, with the last one 1km from the finish of the bike leg, so they have to get back on and ride back to transition.
There is no way of not knowing you didn’t get a penalty. If you get two you get Dq’ed (I think). If you do not stop at the penalty box you get DQ’ed after the race.
Race directors and competitors combined need to take pro-active action on this issue.
I wouldn’t want the guy in front of me to be told he’s going to get penalized. I can see him reacting 3 different ways -
-
he knows he did something wrong, stays quiet, and keeps on riding
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he knows he did some wrong, but starts pleading his case to the official
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he doesn’t know the rule he’s being called on, even if it was in the race packet or covered in a mandatory pre-race meetings, and will now be saying “What? I’m supposed to drop back when I’m passed? But he slowed down…”
If the official and the rider are now having a conversation, their attention isn’t on the race itself, and that’s an extra mess I have to try to get around. If an official is riding next to and staring at me (not my front wheel), then either my chinstrap is unbuckled, they’re writing down my number and identifying features for a possible penalty, or they want to ask me for my phone number (not!)
Solution - the ref doesn’t say a word and goes after the next cheater.
I have to also disagree that it’s easy to know if you got a penalty. At IMFL this year, I got swallowed up by several pelotons, and simply drifted to the back and took my three bike lengths. I swear, efvery single time I got swallowed, a race official was right there riding along with the peloton writing down numbers. I had no idea if mine was one of them or not. When I finished, I didn’t know if I had 0 penalties or 5. I was sure in my mind that I had done no wrong, but you never know how an official sees it. I was happy to find out I had 0, but I had refs around me all day, and I really had no idea if I was nailed or not.
I agree with sig completely. A member of my team who got a penalty at a race in the spring laughed and said that he received the penalty drafting ME. I was surprised both at his attitude and that he drafted. In several races since, he has done the same thing and I learned that I had to pass him on hills so as to leave him far enough behind to keep him off my wheel. It doesn’t always work, because several times he was pulled up to me again by someone else. On the flat course in the spring, I couldn’t get away from him.
In most races the cheaters know they are drafting. I can’t believe that most people who receive penalties are surprised. I did Eagleman with 1800 people (IM size field) and there was a ton of drafting, but you didn’t have to be a part of it. Earlier in this thread Allan mentioned he had to change his riding style, but so be it. That’s what you get if you sign up for a race with nearly 2,000 people.
I saw a long list of penalties posted next to the results after the race with an offical standing there answering questions. I don’t remember if this was within a hour or so after I finished (10+) or if it was later that evening when I came back down to the finish line.
But, the list was there - with an official!
Mac is right. I waited for awhile, but the penalties were posted at about 9:30 that night. They had so many that it took a couple of hours to go through.