There’s a guy on TriNewbies who is complaining about being DQed in IMFL. He thinks he rode clean but everyone who passed him was either in a pack or a peleton. I think this is the reason there is so much of this stuff going on. It’s not the new people in triathlon but the everyone else but me society we live in today.
Bob Sigerson
I don’t know Ken at all, but this must be the same Ken whose website I stumbled across a few months ago while getting acquainted with triathlon. http://www.michiganoutlaws.com It seems he has a passion for the sport, and while I can’t know anything of substance regarding the facts, having not met Ken, been at the race, or heard the reason for the DQ, he obviously feels that he was wronged.
Looking at the rules as found on the ironman website, it says that any TWO violations results in a DQ, although most of the talk I’ve seen suggests in fact three violations are required. Also some violations are automatic DQ first offense (some helmet violations) or can be at the discretion of the official (centerline). There has also been a great deal of discussion on the forum recently regarding the lack of consistency in rule enforcement, both between races and within the same race (it’s only cheating if you get caught, but if you get caught you must have been doing a lot of cheating, etc). If the rules aren’t enforced as written, and each race enforces the different rules differently, unpleasantness is a virtually certain result.
Hard to know what the solution is, but I think it would mightily suck to complete your first ironman only to be told the NEXT DAY, that actually- you didn’t finish, you’re a cheater, and if you want to know the reason, you’ll have to inquire. Not the way to endear people to the sport, Ken’s response is predictable. Guilty or not, he apparently had no idea that he had been penalized, let alone DQ’d. No warnings? Wouldn’t be my policy, but OK, at least have the guts to let the competitors know when you’ve zinged them.
My .22 pesos
Ken (no, not that one)
I agree completely Bob. Like you, day after day I live my life in 100% compliance with my own standards for excellence. And I know that I am perfect in every regard. That said, I am frequently troubled by all the other people in the world (yourself excluded of course) who just can’t get it right. Darn them. If everyone could just see things my way, the world would be an infinately better place, especially (and most importantly) for me. I think this guy you mentioned should not only petition the race committee to be reinstated, but to be awarded the overall race win and all the attendant privleges. Phooey on these silly race penalties for this and that. When will they learn Bob, that you, I and certainly this gentlemen too are well above all this.
Did you post that on his ride report? I’m not defending him, but why bring the topic up here?
I believe there’s three sides to his story. His side, the ref’s side and the truth. I’ll never know the truth so that’s why I didn’t post about it.
Ahhh, Uh oh, If it is that Ken fella I actually know him and he is a nice guy (I’m not being sarcastic as in my previous post) and he is also an experienced racer who knows the sport. That’s got to be disappointing to him (and me too, the guy is a good athlete). I was watching IM Hawaii from a few years ago the other night and I saw the part where Lothar Leder was DQ’d. Leder seemed utterly oblivious to what he had done. In all sincerity, it’s a tough break.
<< Guilty or not, he apparently had no idea that he had been penalized, let alone DQ’d. No warnings? Wouldn’t be my policy, but OK, at least have the guts to let the competitors know when you’ve zinged them.
no, there are no warnings. Reason is simple. I’ll give you an example. Official comes up on a situation and observes a person drafting and gives a warning then moves on assuming the warning was enough. Thirty minutes later a second official comes by and observes the same guy drafting again. Not knowing a warning has alreay been given, he gives a warning and moves on up the road. How many times does he get a warning?
Using the same example with no warnings, the athlete gets dinged with his first penalty for drafting the first time he observed, and then gets his second penalty from the next official that observes him doing the same further along. There is now way for each official to know real time that this person has already recieved one, two or whatever number of calls against him until all penalties are tabulated at the end of the day. This can also work in the athletes favor as not all calls result in a penalty actually being assessed. If all of the information is not recorded correctly, if there is any question at all on the call, it is thrown out.
“How many times does he get a warning?”
One. No real argument here, but no matter what you choose, the official should let the athlete know about the problem. If I’m racing and I hear the marshal tell me my number just got written down I can 1) stop cheating right now and know if I’m caught again (or maybe two more times) I’m out, or 2) figure out what the hell I just got penalized for, since I have no idea what I’m doing wrong. In the no warning system 2/3 strikes and you’re out. In my view, the marshal still takes your number, but the first offense is a gimme. Obviously the warning could/would be exploited by the determined, or not so determined cheater, but the key is the communication. How can I protest a penalty, or learn from my mistake if I don’t know what happened?
.22 more pesos. Eventually it adds up.
Ken
Anyone who has ever done Florida or talked to someone that has, knows this race is all about drafting. It’s a shame only one gets nailed when so many others are guilty. Told one friend that admitted to drafting the whole way, "you still have no idea what it feels like to run 26.2 on bike legs.
Here’s a photo I took from on my bike around mile 80…note the distance to the bike in front of me…in some places along the course, it would be IMPOSSIBLE not to be drafting to some degreee…
Is there no one out there who can believe that someone could get 3 drafting penalties without intentionally drafting? I have no idea if he was really drafting, but I tend to believe him when he says he didn’t think he was and didn’t intend to. Given how crowded it is at the front, I would think it’s easy to get dinged for drafting without intentionally cheating.
Also, I don’t think he posted the message on TNO to complain. He was posting a race report as many other TNO’ers did. His DQ and explanation were part of that. Why can’t we all assume the best from someone rather than the worst???
D.
Nice job of backpedalling, Tom.
Why, thank you.
i agree totally, it is impossible to stay out of that congestion for 112 miles. i think an ironman course needs terrain that can help break hat stuff up.
Actually this post presents an interesting dilemma that faces World Triathlon Corporation:
People (myself included this year) are disappointed they can’t get into Ironman Florida and that it closed too early.
The people who get in say it is too crowded. The photo posted in this thread illustrates that fact nicely.
What should WTC do? More races? Less people per race? Tough questions…
One ting for sure, if Ken did not get the bad news until the next day that kind of raises a question: Why didn;t the official say something to him? I thought they had to stop you and mark your number with a red pen if you were DQ’d. That is amazingly disappointing. It seems as though, if he were in violation and seen by an official, the official should have waved a flag, blown a whistle, pointed to him- some such acknowledgement.
Well, I actually raced there and did not “have to draft” at all, but certainly had to be careful when large packs of drafters came by. The saddest part about the whole deal is that most people who cheated there, knew quite well what they did. Maybe the risk of a 4 minute penalty is not too bad for some, if they can ride 10 minutes faster and have fresher legs on top of that. However, I’d rather have a slower bike time and feel truly like an Ironman, versus taking such shortcuts. (And drafting is no different than cutting swim courses short, which several people did in Florida too)
Herbert
“Why didn;t the official say something to him?”
Man, I need to work on my writing. This was the point I was trying to make. In his post, Ken says he found out about the DQ the day following the race for “apparent drafting.” From what I gather here, if the DQ was for drafting, that means he got at least three penalties, and by his report knew about none of them! No one official would necessarily have known that the penalty s/he called would result in the DQ, but if they had told Ken about each, HE would have known he was getting in trouble and presumably done something about it.
As Mike says, without real time information on the course, the officials woudn’t know about the DQ until they sat down after the race to compile notes. But if the official calls out each penalty, and you can count to three, as an athlete you know where you stand.
It would probably suck to be an official and have to listen to a bunch of crap for each penalty you call, much easier to pass out penalties in anonymity, leaving the competitor to find out after the fact what happened. But if the goal is a cleaner race, the officials should be making the calls (out loud) on the course. All the more reason for one warning, IMO.
Ken
In his post, Ken says he found out about the DQ the day following the race for “apparent drafting.” <<
But does he know for sure that the penalty(ies) were actually for drafting? According to the head referee, the big problem was outside assistance. He himself gave 26 outside assistance penalties of which several were the third or second and third penalties for that participant and the athlete was disqualified.
Also, it’s been noted that the police complained after the race about the number of finished athletes who came back out on the run course on bicycles.
Amen on cutting the swim course short - saw several in front of me go way left of 1st bouy on second lap. In fact I think it cost me 5 - 10 minutes as once I realized what was happening I had to change course and go back (against the current) and go around on the left. I was also passed by several packs on the bike and really had to bite my tongue when I heard others bragging about their incredible bike splits…
Last year in Florida, athletes were required to “stand down” immediately for the time penalty when cited for drafting. This caused at least 2 accidents I know of when other cyclists ran into the back of the stopped motorcycles. That’s probably why they just added the time this year instead of actually standing down the penalized athletes.
I also raced at IMF but got “dinged” for a 4 min penalty. I have been racing for 12 yrs (6 IM, 1 LC worlds, blah, blah, blah) & this was my first penalty…hell I have not even received a warning before. I know the rules & try to stay within them. Notwithstanding that, I got the penalty and I have no problem with the call. I figure I was racing within the rules & the ref didn’t. They made a call & that’s life.
I do have a problem with only finding out the next day (imagine your favourite sporting even with the penalties only being assessed after the game was over). I don’t even know what I got the penalty for…drafting, blocking (hell, for all I know it may have been something on the swim or run). Maybe they got the wrong number:-)))
To be a bit constructive here I think that the refs have a responsibility to let the “culprits” know that they have been assessed a penalty…this is only fair. The race dynamics would change if people knew they had been tagged. To allow the refs NOT to have the responsibility of letting people know on the spot about a penalty call is silly.
Cheers,
