Doug Stern makes you fast! (real long)

So this is a little delayed (like a week), but my team brought Doug Stern to VT last weekend for a swim clinic. Quit spending money on new saddles and carbon brake levers and whatever the hell else is going to save you 0.5 seconds on your next 40k and look to this man for real, “it actually works”, swim advice to make you fast. One of the things I liked the best is that Doug hasn’t really “pioneered” anything, he takes what works from all over the place and gives it to you on a nice platter. Tarpinian says this, Laughlin says that, Popov does this, Thorpe does that. There is no reason to say you must do everything person “X” says or does, take what works and create a masterpiece! If it works, Doug has checked it out, if it works for you…DO IT!

So I’ll gloss over with highlights for space constraints as this will be plenty long with just the highlights….Doug came into VT for a 2 hour Friday session that started with the classroom for some baseline data gathering (here’s my summary – work on your flexibility!! Get your toes to the floor; stretch your shoulders, stretch, stretch, stretch). Interesting explanation for what ankle/toe flexibility matters so much, and its not for a “longer flipper” as I have believed for so long (although that is certainly important) but it is for improving the flow-line over your foot; really not so different than the trailing end of an aero helmet. Decrease the turbulent flow over the back end of your “vessel” thereby reducing the backward pulling vortices coming off your foot. SO STRETCH!

We then went to the pool, did some more testing: 10 minute swim for distance, 25 yards for speed/strokes, video for form and a little bit of drills.

Saturday started with a 3-hour session pretty much devoted to drills and some underwater video analysis as well as watching of video from Friday. Stuff I learned or saw included:

I need to quit staring at the bottom of the pool (yes I know this is contrary to what many have learned in the past - me included) and “find” my hands…watch what they are doing, because there is all sorts of important timing clues in there. For instance see my left hand enter the water, breath, turn back find that same left hand now out in front of my body, then start my left hand pull. It really was quite impressive to feel that work for the first time. It also somehow helped me to keep my arms closer to the surface during the glide phase of my stroke, allowing my hands/arms to act as an airfoil and provide lift rather than just minimizing drag.

While I didn’t do this particularly, he also really stressed how counter-productive “finishing” the stroke is and that your recovery needs to start right at the very top of your hip. So your hand gets to your hip and your elbow should immediately be yanking it out of the water to start your recovery; leading with a high elbow and relaxed hand to an entry point that is roughly even with the elbow of your extended arm. A good drill we practiced was “scooters” it’s single arm drill but with your head out of the water and lead hand on the middle of the middle of a kickboard. Again, you can see everything that is “right” and fix what isn’t. This in particular (getting rid of the backend of your stroke) provided the best explanation I have ever heard regarding why a glide “works” or doesn’t “work” (and I’ve read that point-counterpoint argument on here on STa dozen times). Seeing it on video was even more compelling. Every person who had a lot of “backend stroke” also had their front/leading arm dropping lower and lower in the water as their backarm was busy doing nothing that promoted forward motion. Some people even would actually start the pull of their front arm in response to this lowering, thereby effectively lessening the length of their body, significantly in some cases, while again doing nothing productive with the back hand. So ending your stroke at your hip allows you to swim a bit more in the front quadrant and keep your “vessel” long (the elusive “glide”) while not stalling your stroke (like I have previously been very guilty of). So it’s not really glide vs. no-glide, but re-defining the operational definition of glide and getting rid of "stalls"in your stroke.

As it turns out I also really suck at the catch phase of the stroke and have this weird little outward movement (sort of like sculling) that I guess in some strange way I believed was helping me grab the water. So I need to bend my wrist, extend my shoulder (scapula really) to get forward and “over” then pull STRAIGHT back past my hip that I am consciously snapping out of the way. I was very surprised to hear that “shoulder width”, rather than close to the center-line of my body is much more appropriate (and powerful).

People that came back in the evening (for a 2-hour “freebie” session) got to play with the toys he had brought. Anyone that swims with Doug has probably already used or checked out the “paddles” he recommends. They are extremely narrow across your palm (like 2 fingers narrow) and extends almost to your elbow, but are flexible so that you get used to the feeling of reaching “over the barrel”. They don’t have a strap for your fingers only your forearm though, so if you enter the water “off” the paddle goes flying off too. They really kick-ass. He also recommends fin use pretty extensively, center snorkels, and the second paddle he recommends are the Finis ones (maybe called “freestyler” ?). A couple of us, started to “test” what we had been learning as well. I will speak for a couple of us and say that while faster, we were “gassed” pretty quickly. I was able to swim a 1:12 100 at what I would say was my race “effort” (based on RPE) but my arms were going to fall off my body, no lung problem, just arm/shoulder/muscles. I was next to a teammate and I believe she may have been having the same experience. The will was there, just the muscles haven’t been trained to do it…yet :wink:

Sunday provided more drills, thumbsies, sewing machine, fists, scooters, line pulls, single arm drill (and I’m probably forgetting some). Doug says that every single workout he has his teams start with 200 of thumbsies. Which is a regular swim but your during your recovery, your thumb is in actual physical contact with the side of your body the entire time until you get to your armpit then it flops into the water. I can’t explain sewing machine (and can barely do it, but I know Doug has explained it on ST before). Fists you guys know (or should). Line pulls are just pulling yourself down the lane via the lane lines with one arm while the other stays out front. It works on the fact that if you truly “anchored” your hand in the water, that’s the kind of travel you would get. It also teaches/reinforces/refines the snapping open of your hips. I guess that is the reason so many elite level swimmers play with it, Doug insists that every high-level swimmer will do several hundred yards that way to deeply ingrain the hip opening thingie.

We also taped again and counted strokes again. Every single person took strokes off compared to their Friday count (as many as 4 but normally 2). I’m pretty much tired of typing now, and you are probably tired of reading. SO in summary:

get video-taped cam – soon – even above water, what you see is pretty amazing (you don’t know how bad you suck…trust me)

get flexible, if you already are, get more-so

Find your hands, see your hands, watch your hands, love your hands

do thumbsies, line pulls and scooters…a LOT

Now what really matters….are you faster? After 14 or so hours of drills (clinic included) a few of us raced this weekend) me and two teammates that were at the clinic PR’d in our swims, all of us sub-30 in ½ IM, including a 26:xx, all improvements measured in minutes, not seconds!! Proof is in the pudding.

Doug Stern is to swim technique what Chuck Norris is to roundhouse kick technique.

Now that’s a compliment.

Doug thanks for helping me PR my half iron swim split this weekend!!!

Awesome read. Thanks for posting.

Thank you for providing all the details. Like you said, the proof is in the pudding…way to go.

This swimming thing is starting to get fun, now that I am getting a little better at it.

mm

Like others have said, MANY THANKs. Much appreciated.

RF

Can you explain what the “snapping opening of the hips” is? Thanks

I guess (and this is probably how it is more often explained) your stroke starting with your hips. So take my next sentences with a grain of salt as I am NOT a swim coach, nor do I pretend to be, and am struggling along like everyone else, so Doug or anyone else can chime in here. But much like a golf swing or a baseball bat swing, a huge amount of power comes from the acceleration of said object, (actually I guess all the force does with F=ma, eh?) which is driven by the hips in both of those examples. My understanding is that swimming is no different and the “force” that you can apply is not a derivative of how “hard” you pull but on the acceleration of your paddle through the water. Which falls right in line with “grab the water slowly and accelerate through the pull…” So by allowing your hips to “snap open”, or rather making them do it, instead of just “allowing it”, you get a truckload more muscle mass to drive that acceleration, plus it allows for a straight line of travel for your arm/paddle instead of some crazy “S” thing, and now your hips are out of the way for better hydrodynamics.

Again, take nothing I say as gospel, wait for a real coach to pipe in here :wink:

Necro-Bump.

Can I ask why this isn’t stickied or something? Great drill ideas!

Wow how did you find this? Alas, if memory serves, Doug Stern died of cancer not long after this thread.

Necro-Bump. Can I ask why this isn’t stickied or something? Great drill ideas!

I clicked on Don’s name and it looks like his last log-on was in Nov 2009, so i wouldn’t hold my breath waiting on a reply:) As to why this thread and a few others like the “Barry P run program” thread are not “sticky” threads, this would be a Q for Slowman. Also, not sure all swim coaches would agree with Stern’s advice on stopping your pull at the top of your hip, i.e. pulling your hand out of the water at the top of your hip. Most everything I’ve ever heard and read says finish your stroke with your thumb brushing on the top of your thigh/bottom of your hip, which gives a nice full strong pull. Also, those guys saying that they all PR’d in their next half iron swim does not mean that much since triathlon swims vary greatly in length, e.g. that half swim might just have been short. Pool time trials of say 500 to 1000 yd are much more meaningful in documenting improvement. Only way to know how well you swam in a tri is to compare your times to the fastest swimmers, which generally you can only do after the race, unless you have a friend watching the whole swim who can yell to you how far back you are, and that is really only applicable if it is a mass start.

Wow how did you find this? Alas, if memory serves, Doug Stern died of cancer not long after this thread.

Summer 2007.

Also, I’m always curious how folks find and bump threads like this after 9 years of being dormant.

I was searching for any threads regarding “gliding” while swimming and came across this. The lane line pull drill seems like a great idea that would help me establish a feel for good feel.

I was searching for any threads regarding “gliding” while swimming and came across this. The lane line pull drill seems like a great idea that would help me establish a feel for good feel.

AFAIK, the “pulling on the lane line” drill is mostly a backstroke drill, since your hand can most naturally catch hold of the line when on your back. I haven’t ever seen anyone do it with freestyle; i suppose some people have but it was not used by any of the 5 or 6 teams/clubs i’ve swum with.

finishing around the hip is almost always better. Most knowledgable swim coaches stopped teaching the “flick the hand up like a rooster tail” years ago.

https://youtu.be/XdmcR3fw77M?t=3m14s

Most people will tend to push long anyway, and there is very little propulsion at the very back part of the stroke. think about it, the big muscles in your back can’t contribute anymore, so you have to rely on relatively small muscles in your arms, pushing water with less than optimal surface area.

Doug was rather impressive in his knowledge. Makes me want to go and dig up more of his threads. There are a few drills in there that I will start incorporating into my own practices, i had forgotten all about them over the years.

finishing around the hip is almost always better. Most knowledgable swim coaches stopped teaching the “flick the hand up like a rooster tail” years ago.
https://youtu.be/XdmcR3fw77M?t=3m14s
Most people will tend to push long anyway, and there is very little propulsion at the very back part of the stroke. think about it, the big muscles in your back can’t contribute anymore, so you have to rely on relatively small muscles in your arms, pushing water with less than optimal surface area.
Doug was rather impressive in his knowledge. Makes me want to go and dig up more of his threads. There are a few drills in there that I will start incorporating into my own practices, i had forgotten all about them over the years.

I didn’t say flick the hand up like a rooster tail, which I agree 100% just looks stupid and is waste of energy. In your youtube video, Magnussen appears to be pulling all the way through to the bottom of his hip/top of his thigh, which is what i was saying as opposed to the “top of the hip” which is what Stern was advocating. Regarding the fact that only arm muscles are involved, that may be true but you’ve got so much momentum from the first 3/4 of the stroke that it seems only natural to finish the last 1/4, which is indeed what Magnussen appears to be doing as far as i can see.

“Can I ask why this isn’t stickied or something? Great drill ideas!”

we’re in the middle of a big site makeover. whole site, soup to nuts. it’ll all get launched kind of at at the same time. a part of the makeover is a whole new way of handling search on the forum. part of that whole new way is going to be threads like this that are retrievable when you look for threads specific to certain key headings.

finishing around the hip is almost always better. Most knowledgable swim coaches stopped teaching the “flick the hand up like a rooster tail” years ago.
https://youtu.be/XdmcR3fw77M?t=3m14s
Most people will tend to push long anyway, and there is very little propulsion at the very back part of the stroke. think about it, the big muscles in your back can’t contribute anymore, so you have to rely on relatively small muscles in your arms, pushing water with less than optimal surface area.
Doug was rather impressive in his knowledge. Makes me want to go and dig up more of his threads. There are a few drills in there that I will start incorporating into my own practices, i had forgotten all about them over the years.

I didn’t say flick the hand up like a rooster tail, which I agree 100% just looks stupid and is waste of energy. In your youtube video, Magnussen appears to be pulling all the way through to the bottom of his hip/top of his thigh, which is what i was saying as opposed to the “top of the hip” which is what Stern was advocating. Regarding the fact that only arm muscles are involved, that may be true but you’ve got so much momentum from the first 3/4 of the stroke that it seems only natural to finish the last 1/4, which is indeed what Magnussen appears to be doing as far as i can see.

Yeah, but you were talking about finishing mid-thigh (which is what the old wrist flick thingy was trying to encourage). No one in that semi finishes their stroke mid thigh, they all finish at some point around the hip. The guy in the near lane was finishing pretty close to the top of the hip. Then factor in that these guys are all sprinters. Distance swimmers should be finishing the stroke even higher, for the most part.

A lot of things in swimming “seem natural”, but you don’t want to do them if you want to swim fast.

finishing around the hip is almost always better. Most knowledgable swim coaches stopped teaching the “flick the hand up like a rooster tail” years ago.
https://youtu.be/XdmcR3fw77M?t=3m14s
Most people will tend to push long anyway, and there is very little propulsion at the very back part of the stroke. think about it, the big muscles in your back can’t contribute anymore, so you have to rely on relatively small muscles in your arms, pushing water with less than optimal surface area.
Doug was rather impressive in his knowledge. Makes me want to go and dig up more of his threads. There are a few drills in there that I will start incorporating into my own practices, i had forgotten all about them over the years.

I didn’t say flick the hand up like a rooster tail, which I agree 100% just looks stupid and is waste of energy. In your youtube video, Magnussen appears to be pulling all the way through to the bottom of his hip/top of his thigh, which is what i was saying as opposed to the “top of the hip” which is what Stern was advocating. Regarding the fact that only arm muscles are involved, that may be true but you’ve got so much momentum from the first 3/4 of the stroke that it seems only natural to finish the last 1/4, which is indeed what Magnussen appears to be doing as far as i can see.

Yeah, but you were talking about finishing mid-thigh (which is what the old wrist flick thingy was trying to encourage). No one in that semi finishes their stroke mid thigh, they all finish at some point around the hip. The guy in the near lane was finishing pretty close to the top of the hip. Then factor in that these guys are all sprinters. Distance swimmers should be finishing the stroke even higher, for the most part. A lot of things in swimming “seem natural”, but you don’t want to do them if you want to swim fast.

I said: Most everything I’ve ever heard and read says finish your stroke with your thumb brushing on your thigh, which gives a nice full strong pull. Perhaps i should have specified the top of the thigh but that is what i was thinking. I’ll have to see what i’m actually doing on my next swim.

Doug’s drills (particularly his Sewing Machine drill) were a huge help to me way back when. Well worth anyone doing a search or getting stickied as someone else suggested.

Well, generally, someone reading your comment will assume mid thigh, unless you specify otherwise.

The top of your thigh is your hip :slight_smile: