Hello out there in the tri-world. I have had something land in my lap that in a way has been what I have wanted for a while, mainly a silent investor.
We all know about ASI, myraceday.com, and of course George Chambers selling images online from triathlons. I have been doing the same without getting in to a contractual problem with the vendors that have paid for the right to sell directly to the racers. (disclosure: I am THE staff (marketing) photographer for all Sommer Sports events and St. Anthony’s).
Here are my questions:
If the photo quality is high end, how often do you purchase images.
Have you ever bought a photo on a mouse pad/mug, etc.
What do you consider to be a “fair” price for a 4x6, 5x7, 8x10, 11x14.
What would you consider to be a fair price for the actual digital file.
If the photo is the “finish-line” shot, do you prefer the timing clock to be shown, (yes, I have seen both ways, but do not understand why get a finish-line shot if the clock is not showing, unless you are having a bad day of course).
How important are “on course” photos to you? I am not talking about just outside the trans area, but actually on the course.
I appreciate everybody’s response. If you have any other comments, please post them.
Just my one little preference. I have no interest in bike shots coming in or going out of transition. I want pics out on the road, with my shoes on and in my aerobars. I don’t give the other bike shots a 2nd shot.
beatnic_tx, Thanks for that. I am in the finish chute for so little time (usually only worrying about the m/f winners) that I never really gave it much thought. I know the RDs try hard to make the clock accurate. One of the things about clocks also is that they are so high that it screws up the image composition (lots of sky, etc).
Mark
One thing that drives me crazy is the photographer that positions himself on a hill on the bike course…you aren’t in your bars…a nice flat with a good background should be sought out. Transition photos are also a waste.
i always by 5x7 for my wall of fame. i never buy mouse pads or anything else. i like a good shot getting out of the water, a good shot in the aero position in the bike and a finish line running shot or something with good scenery in the background. i would like to pay aout $10 per photo anything over $14.99 for a 5x7 is to much. give a discount for the more pictures you buy.
Second that. In/out photos on the bike do nothing for me. I want to see the aero position. I’ve gotten ONE photo of me in a race on the bike, and that’s exactly why I got that one.
As for the digital file? Well, recently I had my daughter do a shoot at Sears. I asked about the photos on CD… $145! (or something close to that) Outrageous. They’re PICTURES, for cryin’ out loud. I just wanted to be able to e-mail them to some folks.
If the photo quality is high end, almost always - but I am a newbie to the sport and that may have something to do with it. Maybe after your 20th race you lose interest in anything other than very compelling shots or key races. I am still at the stage where I save all my race bibs!
Never have - never will.
Don’t buy them (at least in this circumstance). $0.25 is about right in my mind
This is what I buy - since I can then do whatever I want (including cropping for preferred use). Appreciating this I have no problem paying $20-$25 for this as I can make as many prints for less than a $1 as I want.
Yes - but only beacuse I can crop it out easily and am usually in Wave 1 at most races.
Very - I hate having to think “make sure you are in your bars coming out of transition or your bike photo will look stupid.”
Good questions. Guessing responses will be all over the map, but my input:
If the photo quality is high end, how often do you purchase images.
I’ll admit it, I’m a sucker for finish photos – I’ll almost always buy that as a minimum.
Have you ever bought a photo on a mouse pad/mug, etc.
No.
What do you consider to be a “fair” price for a 4x6, 5x7, 8x10, 11x14.
I wouldn’t buy anything bigger than a 5x7 myself. I think somewhere in the $10-15 range.
What would you consider to be a fair price for the actual digital file.
Depends on what you mean by digital file. If you’re going to sell the full-res image so I can print the photos myself, you’re losing a fair amount of revenue from prints, so I’d expect that to be priced accordingly. I think I’ve usually paid in the $25-40 range the once or twice I’ve done this. Now, I’d like to see more race photogs selling lower res digital files cropped and sized for computer wallpapers (1024 x 768, etc) – that’s really more the reason I’d want the digital image anyway. I’d probably only pay < $10 for that – I can always scan and do it myself, but I’d pay a few bucks to have it done professionally and quickly.
If the photo is the “finish-line” shot, do you prefer the timing clock to be shown, (yes, I have seen both ways, but do not understand why get a finish-line shot if the clock is not showing, unless you are having a bad day of course).
No preference, although I can see the point about finish clock not having much meaning for wave starts.
How important are “on course” photos to you? I am not talking about just outside the trans area, but actually on the course.
If you want to have any hope at all of selling them to me, they’d better be pretty good; better than good, actually. After the finish line photo, I get significantly more picky. I want them out on the course doing the events. My best experience with this was at IMC in '01. Had pictures of me coming out of the water just before wetsuit strip. They had 2 signs on the road before each photographer “station” (bike & run) warning you a photo opportunity was coming up.
I have only ever bought 2 photos…both .jpg versions, for use on my website. That covers almost 20 years and 100s of races of all types. I wouldn’t have bought the last one I bought (the front page, running photo on my website) except that I didn’t have a decent one of my own. $42 was too damn much to pay for a .jpg image, if you ask me. I’m a fairly avid amateur photo guy with an EOS 1n, EOS 20D, and stable of Canon L lenses, so I’m pretty darn familiar with photo workflow, whether full digital, or scans from negatives/slides…$42 is highway robbery. The only difference is that it’s mighty hard for me to be racing and still get a photo of myself…If I ever figure out that conundrum sufficiently, you can bet I’ll never buy another…at least as long as folks want to charge that kind of $.
I don’t understand why the price for digital format is soooo much more expensive than photos… what do they think? … we can’t do a high resolution scan of a photo and make copies…
The cost for digital format is waaay too expensive in most instances…
If you want to sell a lot of pictures at a low cost…?
I think the internet sale of music would be a pretty good product distribution model to start with…
Selling pictures in a file format is relatively cheap and it is very convienent and fast for a lot of buyers. As for those who do not have access to the internet or printer… you can send the pics to walmart (or equivalent picture location)… and let them pay for the pictures made by walmart… you simply need to charge for the service of sending the file making any photo corrects to a Walmart or simular photo production location). In my mind, this eliminates the need to have any overhead except what it costs to keep the internet site active and/or 800 number. All production will be done either by the end user or by an outsourced provider such as Walmart, etc. You charge simply for the file (larger file = larger cost?) and any retouch/correcting services you may have to apply to the picture itself.
(Side note: something that never makes sense to me… why offer a itty bitty thumbnail for viewing with a larger pick that will have this HUGE watermark in the middle. How you suppose to buy a product you can make out the quality?)
Just a thought… Joe
BTW, the absolute best photo I have seen were done by the photographer on the back of a motor cycle taking pictures at random during the bike and/or run. The stationary photos are only good if they have a spectacular background… or, a background that has a lighting situation that is relatively constant (which is almost impossible for IM races). Are these important… depends upon if you consider good photos important… and, most on course photos are the best if taken correctly by a photographer that knows how to adjust for lighting and position.
I am not a professional photographer - amateur may even be a strong word. I have no professional bias in this.
The reason you pay $20-$40 for a digital image is that you are buying the copyright to that image in full. If you want to use a low res version on your website and that’s all than I can see why the price compared to the use seems high - but it is not reasonable for the average photographer to create a multi-tier licensing scheme and enforce it. If there was a simple way to sell you the low res pic for $5 if they could stop you from using it anywhere else I am sure they would be happy to.
What you are paying for in that copyright is a fraction of some very expensive gear, a fraction of a lifetime’s worth of experience in getting great shots in tough conditions, the cost of post processing a high quality picture from the shot, a little bit of the cost of shooting everyone that didn’t buy a photo at that event, etc…
There is a reason that pro photographers don’t often make the move to the owner’s box! It’s a career of passion for an art that some manage to squeeze a decent living out of. Expecting something for nothing is certainly a consumer right but there is no vendor obligation to fulfill it.
I have been sent the card in the mail a few times but have never thought it was a good enough photo to pay for. hard to make photos in the midday sun look good.
no
your price for a small size seems reasonable. On a side note, I thought even the enlarged thumbnails on your site were on the small side and not much larger than the non-enlarged thumbnails.
4 the price of the 8x10 + the price to scan it - the cost of the paper and ink.
5.clock showing
good on the course shots are the best, especially if there’s some impressive backdrop. a sign 50yds before is a good idea so folks can be looking up with minimal snot on their face. I would have bought a shot of myself with Mt. Bachelor in the background at Pacific Crest if you could see something other than the top of my helmet.
Thank you everyone for responding so quickly. I am taking all ideas and thoughts to heart. I am going to keep watching and in the morning (or so) will post some ideas and thoughts on your replies.
One thing I do want to make clear, I am not, nor have I ever been part of ASI, myraceday.com or George Chambers.
When I ask about digital file, it is the full high res file straight from the camera. The only thing that would be done post race would be some minor color correcting. There would also be a package price for cds of the entire take of your bib, regardless of where along the it was shot.
I am not afraid of a customer buying prints or a digital file and then turning around a selling them to a publication because right now all the images from races I work are hand-outs anyways, unless the publication wants to pay for an exclusive image from that race. As for web use, I have always told people that if they see an image on my website or a client’s site, I have no problem with them using it on a website as long as a direct link goes back to my website in the photo credit. As for the gaudy watermark on all my online images. I started doing that five or six years ago not because John Q. Public wanted to make cheap prints of low res images, but because of jerk-off photographers that wanted to claim my work as their’s. One idiot had 73 images of mine on his site and had his lawyer yelling at my lawyer about how he actually was the owner of the images. Will, he eventually removed my images after about a week of going back and forth. That was the worst offender, others had a dozen or so here and there.
As for print pricing, I think 4x5/4x6 at $4.95, 5x7 at $9.95 and 8x10/8.5x11 for $14.95 is more then fair. I think it is a rip-off what some places charge for prints. Since 1978 (when I started selling prints as a teenager, I never thought of charging more then 15 bucks for an 8x10.
Type with you all in the a.m. Thanks for all the insight, please keep it up.
Mark
Opps, one other quick thing. Through out the racing season, I receive requests to sponsor teams. I already know that one of the ways I am going to give back to the racing community is to sponsor teams, individuals, etc. My backer is open to many ideas and if that means paying entry fees, offering cash to the winners and various depth levels, so be it. One thing that I have always felt, is that there are companies taking your money but not putting any back in to the industry.
By the way, yes, I am the guy in the water and also wear a white safari style hat aka Tilley hat.
Yeah, I bought my dad a Father’s Day mug with me on it from one of my 10K races. He loves it.
??, but not the rip-off amounts that most race pic places charge.
??
Yes, if mass start. No if waves. My first Half Vineman race I started in one of the last waves and that was still at the time when the HVM and Full VM were run together. My finisher’s photo says 10:xx and VINEMAN. Looks like I’m really fast.
Running shots are nice. I love my Kona run shot. Bike shots it depends. The Alcatraz run shots are usually super due to the bay and Golden Gate Bridge being in the background.
I’ll wager that female thinking on this topic is a little different than male thinking. I like and often buy race pictures because they’re a great momento of the day. But, I won’t buy if there isn’t some sort of minimally flattering shot. A lot of this is beyond your control, but consistently unflattering shots include running out of transition in bike shoes and the wetsuit/swim cap shot. I like side shots of the bike and run shots, especially if you can catch me completely off the ground (thereby perpetuating the illusion of swiftness).
If the photo quality is high end, how often do you purchase images. – I have purchased a couple of times from more significant races.
Have you ever bought a photo on a mouse pad/mug, etc. – No
What do you consider to be a “fair” price for a 4x6, 5x7, 8x10, 11x14. – $15 for a good 5x7 sounds fair.
What would you consider to be a fair price for the actual digital file. – The companies that take pics in colorado are trying to charge $50 for a CD of the images with 1024x1536 resolution! A single image is $34! Absolutely crazy! No way I am paying that much for a digital image, never. I don’t need them to send a CD either, if they would simply offer downloads of the photos directly from the website for $5 bucks each I’d probably get a couple from every race I do. (Maybe I should build something like that)
If the photo is the “finish-line” shot, do you prefer the timing clock to be shown, (yes, I have seen both ways, but do not understand why get a finish-line shot if the clock is not showing, unless you are having a bad day of course). – Only if the time reflected MY time.
How important are “on course” photos to you? I am not talking about just outside the trans area, but actually on the course. – My favorites were always taken on the course.
