I am training for the Atlanta marathon on Thanksgiving day. On Tuesday’s I do Yasso 800’s. I like to do them on the treadmill, at a 1% grade, because I know the exact time for each 800. My other runs are outside. A friend who I’ll be running the marathon with (who I want to beat) says I get NO credit for doing them on the treadmill and he is doing his at the track. He thinks it is too easy that way. I say by elevating the treadmill a percent I get the benefit.
Any thoughts? It is very important for a years worth of future bragging rights that I beat him in the marathon.
David
Explanation: Yasso 800’s are an interesting concept developed by Bart Yasso of Runner’s World. You run 10x800 with each 800 being the time you want to run the marathon and an equal rest break. For example I am running 800 in 3:00 with a 3:00 rest break and building up by a repeat every couple weeks until I can do 10 (I am did 5 repeats yesterday). Yasso’s postulate would estimate my marathon time would be about 3:00 hours. Kind of cool, and not perfect science but I am a numbers kind of guy and it gives a nice program.
There are a lot more experienced runners out there, but I think the track can be a higher risk of injury with stress on the turns. I have to switch directions on each interval to avoid problems. I have also run on the dreadmill and do not see why you would not be getting a benefit doing them there. I know that I read that a treadmill at 0% is like running on a slight downhill (anyone know the reason?), so 1% may better simulate flat running on the track.
On a real track (400m) there shouldn’t be a higher risk of injury due to the turns. Besides, most real tracks only let ya run in the correct direction, counter-clockwise. Yasso’s on the treadmill “count” in the sense that you are still getting a good interal type workout in. People take Yasso’s very literally, but in reality it’s just kind of an interesting correlation that makes it easy to figure out what’s a good pace for your 800 repeats. A lot of people think that just because they can run 3:00 800 repeats that they can run a 3 hour marathon. That’s only true if they have done all the other run workouts appropriate for a 3 hour marathon…
Bikerdude…its Aug, not January. You should be running outside in the “real world” on the track with your buddy. The marathon is run in the real world too. Make your intervals approximate that as closely as possible :-). Your buddy is correct. You get no credit (in the game of training one upmanship). If it was Jan and minus 10 with snow outside, then they count !
That being said, you do gain benefit and its a tough workout, but your buddy is winning the game of psychological warfare, which you should not underestimate if you truly plan to pummel him.
I agree you have to do the other workouts and I am following Hal Higdon’s 18 week advanced II program. I am not under the illusion that doing the Yasso’s will magically make me run a 3:00 marathon.
PS I am secretly doing them at 2% on the mill which according to my calculations equates to a 2:56 flat, outdoor speed.
I do tempo runs both on the treadmill (at 1% grade) and the track.
For me, on a Life Fitness treadmill, the 1% grade still yields a slightly faster speed at a given heartrate than I can achieve on the track. (At 0%, there’s a big difference.) I would add :10 per mile to your treadmill pace (at 1% grade) to get your comparable track pace.
Doesn’t the track put more pressure on your outer knee? That’s where I feel it if I do not change directions (the track I go to has almost no one there).
I agree with ya on the 3:00 800s. I can get the 800s down to 2:50s which I believe translates to somewhere around a 3:00 to 3:10 marathon using one of those distance formulas. The big IF is the endurance factor and translating the speed into much longer distances. I think the formulas are meaningless if you do not have the training and even if you do, may not be accurate due to hundreds of factors.
BTW - Are mile repeats better for marathon training? 800s would seem to be a bit short.
you get full credit in my book. i think repeats on the treadmill are great for learning pace and possibly harder than one outdoors - you can’t slow down mid-interval like you might on the track. by the way, i’ve done the atlanta marathon 2 or 3X (can’t remember). practice on the hills if you can and be prepared for a lonely couple hours - everyone who’s not running is either away for the holidays or home pigging out. good luck in the race!
I think treadmill running is a good idea for speed if the climate is inhospitable, i.e. for me the temp outside is about 115 degrees. The temp in the gym will still be 85 or more, but with the big fans I can still get a workout.
Two years ago during the winter I found I could run just as fast on the track after having done a month of treadmill intervals because of the cold. I had wondered a little about it, because as long as you don’t fall off the treadmill, then you can hold a certain pace. I though it might make me mentally weak from just hanging out running in place. It didn’t matter to me when I ran again on the track. Hard was hard. Personally I think the treadmill reduces the pounding and can be less physically stressful if you have the mental fortitude to run in the same place. Yuck.
Yasso 800s are entertaining, but somewhat meaningless, IMO. I can always crank out fast 800s, but running the miles to build endurance was always my stumbling block.
I read once that Alberto Salazar did a portion of his track workouts and a few of his long runs on a t’mill. I’ve done track on the t’mill and out on a regular 400m track and, to me, the t’mill is harder. No wind to cool you off, at least a 1% grade, plus I don’t count the time spent cycling the t’mill up to whatever pace it is I’m running at, so that adds anywhere from 5 to 15 seconds of additional running just to get to the sendoff pace.
Then again, I have no brain, so I therefore feel no pain
I used to run a “downhill 10K” on my treadmill at 10 mph to get ready for the openning stretch at Boston. I just stuck one enyclopedia on each end at the back of the treadmill for ~3% downhill. Great for practicing turnorver. Now, it seems the Lance Watson training group is using a similar strategy to train for the Olympic tri albeit at a much higher speed :-)…I gave myself credit for a 10K run (or 15K with warmup and cooldown).
hey dev, phil maffetone recommends downhill running at least once a week because you’re able to go faster and still stay aerobic (or something like that). i’m going to try it this off-season.
Treadmills are also notoriosly inaccurate. Passing the question of what a 1% grade actually means on a treadmill, most treadmills are slightly faster, in my experience, than track workouts. I’d guess it would be more important to do your 800’s on 2:50-2:55, than at 2%. But, I haven’t tested YOUR treadmill.
I did my track workout last night on the t’mill. I did a couple 800s etc. On the 100s all-out, because the t’mill will only go up to 10mph (I’m at one of those local YMCAs where the staff doesn’t trust the generally-sedentary moo-like population to run fast safely) I raise the thing up to between 6 and 8% elevation. Those get your quads burning in a hurry
Your recoveries are too long. A good rule to follow is half the distance or half the time. If you are running 800m reps you should jog 400m for your recovery. 800m is wa-a-a-a-y too long to get the maximum benefit from the workout.
For the record, I run 800m reps in 2:45 …and I don’t think I could do 10 at that pace, and my last marathon was 2:37…the math doesn’t compute so well for me.
Aren’t most coaches going (on the 800s and 400s at least) with the “equal rest to work ratio” thing? I know if I do a 400m in 1:30 (6:00/mi pace), then most of the coaches on the 'net are saying to get a 1:30 rest before your next interval.
I used to do the 400s on a 1:00 rest (and miles and 800s, too, depending on what I was building for). I don’t think I’d like to go back to those days. I’ve run a 3:06 off the bike at the IM distance (though not anywhere that time in the last few years), so I know I can run decently, given correct training, I guess.
Most coaches make their money coaching couch potatoes…there aren’t enough real athletes to go around.
I was a little unclear in my last post…the recovery should be half the distance, which if you jog it will of course be close to the same time as the full distance rep.
I agree. I have this exact same problem with my training partner. He doesn’t understand the physiology behind intervals either. He does 800 repeats with 4 minutes rest! Why bother? I was doing them with 2 minutes rest and feeling like a slacker as it was! (I’m at 3:30 for the 800 for 10 of them.)
