I have raced numerous 70.3’s and a single full iron over the last 4 years. I am pretty sure my race results for the run portion have been mostly influenced by how hard I cooked or held back on the bike. Is there any evidence that post ride runs help?
I guess I’m asking- Assuming total mileage between a Bricker and a non-Bricker are the same, with same intensity who do you think would win in a head to head race?
Nope.
The winner would be the person who ran the most on fresher legs.
The benefit is not about endurance or fitness, it’s more about overcoming that weird feeling when running after riding and thus, getting in the running rhythm faster without affecting your form.
Brazil, Russia, India and China will not be able to assist you in your next triathlon.
I understand about the feeling of tired or heavy post ride legs. In my first year of Tri’s I did a number of these. Do you think these need to be a regular part of your ongoing training?
+1
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The benefit is not about endurance or fitness, it’s more about overcoming that weird feeling when running after riding and thus, getting in the running rhythm faster without affecting your form.
Your body figures that out pretty quickly on its own. Bricks don’t really help.
Thanks but I really would prefer not to feel like a PIIG and be forced into restraint that might limit my success.
Advice seems to be all over the map.
This excerpt from Sami Inkinen’s blog Secret Sauce to a sub 9 hr Hawaii-
" 3. You need to do big brick workouts (bike+run) to be able to run fast off the bike. You also have to train to run on tired legs by doing massive bike rides a day before a long run"…"
It certainly takes a few events (or workouts) to get used to the feeling of running after a long and/or hard bike ride, but that feelings will never go away. I still feel crappy for the first 5-15minutes of running off the bike, similar to feeling in my first triathlon 5+ years ago.
Secondly, I’ve avoided doing any major run workouts with tired legs. Running with tired legs and/or bad form is the easiest way to injure oneself. I haven’t found scientific research that would explain why training with tired legs (=lower power) and bad form (=injury risk) would actually make a better runner even if you have to do that after a bike ride in a race.
Instead, I’ve had all my runs in an almost fully recovered state, which has allowed me to run much faster and stronger each time."
This makes sense…but looking for info also to the contrary.
-physiologically, the brick don’t do much for you.
-i dont like to put them in training schedules unless we are talking a time restricted athlete.
That said:
-i would ABSOLUTELY have every of my athletes do a few brick before there A race. it s about fine tuning effort, transition, mental aspect. For ironman, it s a powerful tool that i only use for specific reasons and with moderation.
With regard to the tired legs/poor form idea…
I had a two hour tempo ride and my long run scheduled today (bad planning). Instead of doing the bike to run (11.5 mile), I ran first so I was fresh and then died a slow death on the trainer afterwards… This set up would probably be a safer way to reduce injury, right?
You asked two questions, in a way…
“race results or the run portion have been mostly influenced by how hard I cooked or held back on the bike”
Yes, true. Read everything you can on W prime.
and, “Is there any evidence that post ride runs help?”
No. The concept of the “brick” workout is a myth. Not only is it pseudo-science, there is no data to suggest that it’s effective, let alone prescriptive, training.
You asked two questions, in a way…
“race results or the run portion have been mostly influenced by how hard I cooked or held back on the bike”
Yes, true. Read everything you can on W prime.
and, “Is there any evidence that post ride runs help?”
No. The concept of the “brick” workout is a myth. Not only is it pseudo-science, there is no data to suggest that it’s effective, let alone prescriptive, training.
Not at all… it s a key session that helps many. I dont know a single world class professional that doesn’t do them… it s simply important to understand that the benefice of it are not physiological adaptation but others…
in term of effectiveness, i have a shit load of data so does about any good coach… it s important to hit athlete with a strong dose of REALITY CHECK every once in awhile… 
that s effectiveness right there
Brazil, Russia, India, and China are very important countries.
The one with more mental toughness.
Bricks vs. No Bricks have been debated here ad nauseum use the search function.
If you look at all the research on bricks they show that they increase run speed over the first 300m-1000m depending upon the study you look at…
BUT
The traditional format of doing a bike then going for a run does not help you run faster off the bike.
In order to benefit from doing bricks you actually need to do successive b/r bouts. Maybe 5x(2-3k hard bike + 300-500m hard run) That has been proved to help.
The athletes that will benefit the least, in terms of increasing run velocity are long course athletes. The ones that benefit the most will be ITU/draft legal racers then those doing sprints and olys.
I dont know a single world class professional that doesn’t do them… it s simply important to understand that the benefice of it are not physiological adaptation but others…
in term of effectiveness, i have a shit load of data so does about any good coach
Well, since you called me out, I’ll respond with a request for you to publish your “shit load of data that any good coach has” that proves effectiveness. I don’t claim to be the most knowledgeable, and I didn’t stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I do have a Sport, Club, Expert, and Elite-level coaching ticket(s) from USA Cycling, have coached and worked with Olympic athletes and medal winners (cycling and triathlon), several pro triathletes, and some current AG champions, and I don’t have that shit load of data, so either I missed the handout at the last coaching symposium or I’m not a good coach, if I follow your logic.
Or even simpler, cite 3 peer-reviewed studies with statistical significance that can be generalized to the overall population without limitations that quantify the effectiveness of the brick workout. Data or it didn’t happen.
I would only do about 3-4 bricks per season, typically early in the season, and even then, the runs were seldom more than 1-2 miles. The purposes for me were:
Once I got mid-way through race season, it didn’t make much sense to continue doing bricks; after a couple of races, the body knew how to do the transition and how to run off the bike. So for me, it was a way to knock off the rust at the beginning of race season.
The only time I did any bricks at the end of race season when during IM training, and again I’d only do 1-2 mile run tops to see how the legs felt after 80-90-100 mile bike rides. And by the way, they always felt horrible. Isn’t that what IM training is all about?
BrokenSpoke
To run well off the bike.
Brick sessions form a small part of point two.
Reality is you can’t run well, irrespective of training if you over-cook yourself on the bike.
The benefit is not about endurance or fitness, it’s more about overcoming that weird feeling when running after riding and thus, getting in the running rhythm faster without affecting your form.
Your body figures that out pretty quickly on its own. Bricks don’t really help.
A GPS watch reminding you that your running way too damn fast, is probably the most useful. I find RPE and even breathing rate are completely skewed and I’m always running too fast. I did one this last weekend, just to test nutrition (make sure I didn’t have GI issues after a 70.3 distance and intensity ride) and just to see how my legs felt at race pace at my current fitness level off the bike.
My preference on weekends however is to split up the workouts. Better quality and intensity that way. A 1 hour run and 3 hour bike separated by 8 hours can be done a LOT harder than a 4 hour effort done together. Throw in a swim sometime that morning and you have a TSS nearly equal to a 70.3 for that day, without nearly the same level of fatigue.